Ok, you got me. Maybe I'm a fish. I was just trying to offer another perspective. I said, with a good read, but I guess you always fold Kings then?

I've 4b worse than KK a million times. It depends who's in the hand and how the action goes. V can easily have worse than KK here and is just afraid of playing a hand OOP so they jam it in preflop and hope everyone folds. If only I could count the number of times I've seen this and someone turns over AK or JJ and says they didn't want to see a flop. Even if V has AA you're still gonna win 18% of the time anyway.

Think I counted 7-3 in favor of calling.

Pretty important. I'm assuming OP is pretty nitty. Still can barely imagine folding unless we're the nittiest player in the room by reputation.

if you mean by nitty, willing to fold a good hand when I have good reason to expect it to be 2nd best? Then yes I am nitty.

Yes thats pretty much the nit mantra

I'm pretty sure that 3-bet folding KK 150bbs deep in a vacuum is a massive leak.

Given the preflop action I would assume that 25 is a fairly standard opening raise size at this table? That would make this game closer to 2-5 or 5-5 than 1-3. At such a game $500 or even $800 wouldn't count as a "deep stack".

Did the SB call the 25 then when it got back to him jammed? What's your position in the hand?

Is this 2/5? You started the hand with $500, 3bet to 80, and have 420 left. I don't see how you can fold.


So if I have $300 and I 3bet to 150, it's a LEAK to call a 4bet?

We have $420 left after our 3bet in a 2/5 game. We're not deep.

I wish I was good enough to always cover the deepest stack at the table (without going north). How do you do it? You sound like a true world class professional player!

I don't understand. Small blind is second last to act in the opening round of betting. UTG raised, I re-raised from the dealer, Small Blind went all in.

This was a 1-3 NL game.

He's got to respect my 3bet raise. Evem an aggressive player does not want to lose most of their stack, when a tight player 3 bets. I can't see him having A-K as I have pocket kings. It's either Aces, Queens or Jacks.

The UTG player made a pretty big raise UTG so I put him as having a big ace. He was fairly loose Passive. Loose passive doesn't like to raise too much pre flop. When he folded to the All-In, he paused and hemmed and hawed.

By the way I never said if I called here or Not.

you posted KK in big blind then said you 3-bet from the button????

that's where the confusion is

Oh **** me, I made a typo. I had just posted a different hand involving KK from the big blind in another thread.

To be clear I had Pocket kings from the dealer and small blind went all in.

What is the standard opening size at this table?

If it's 15, then this game plays like a standard 1-3 game.

If 25 is the standard, then this game plays more like 2-5.

Given the opening raise in this hand was 25, and you have 500 dollars, which is 20x the opening raise size, you are not deep stacked. It would be a massive leak to fold KK here to the 4bet at these stack depths.

Now do you want to tell us what happened?

I would say 15 or 20 was the standard pre-flop bet. $25 was a bit high.

Not sure if folding is a massive leak, but seems to be 8-3 here in favor of calling.

I was told not to mention what happened as it may change people's opinions..but if other people agree I will.

Normally people will post results after a day or two, after the commentary has tapered off.

If his range is JJ+ then you call obviously. You can't rule out someone random doing this with AKs either.

Not posting results doesn't mean never. It means not in the OP or until the conversation has died down. General rule of thumb is no sooner than a day since OP, and wait longer if the debate is still interesting.

I don't mean to derail, but this line of reasoning is simply incorrect. There are 6 combos each of AA, QQ, and JJ available. When we have KK, there are 8 combos of AK available. If he can show up with QQ/JJ, he can show up with AK too.

Alright here's what happened....

First my reasoning:

1) Opening raiser was pretty aggressive. He liked to overbet pots. I had seen him raise pre-flop 25 or 30 dollars from the button even with no limpers in the pot. Couldn't really be because he was protecting aces..I figure.

2) What about this opening UTG raise? Only thing that made sense was he had a hand like A-J or A-q suited. I didn't see him as having a small pair or suited connectors because of the UTG raise, this isn't common for calling stations to do. If he had a big pair, he would have called the all in from the Villain. Seemed logical he didn't want to coin flip with a hand like A-Q.

So I thought about it for a minute...

I said "call"

Villain immediately turns over Pocket Aces. They hold up. My pot is gone.

I figure I would have done the same thing up to a pot of $800.00, I just wouldn't risk it all on one hand unless I was the one holding the Aces.

Some Guy on the table is an acquaintance of mine, then said to me "what the bleep did you think he had?" making me feel ashamed.

Judging from the responses I am glad I made the right decision.

(PS. I spoke to the UTG raiser and asked him what he had..he said he had pocket 10's..I was wrong on all counts).

An important aspect of this is to estimate the competence level of villain.
Most Level0 players will see AA and just jam quickly because they cant wait to win. (so you'd rather fold KK)
More 'advanced' players would probably rather 4bet to 250 with AA to lure others in, as they don't want everybody to fold, and rather shove AK specifically because they don't mind the folds. (So you happily call KK)
Even better players would be more balanced, but KK would probably still be a call.

It's not that you shouldn't post results ever, it's just that in some hands, particularly this one, they don't really matter. There are a lot threads in here that involve tricky spots with KK. Obviously he can have AA. The question really is does the villain have enough "other" hands in his range to make this a good call with KK. Whether or not he actually shows up with AA in this spot doesn't really tell us that. What to actually do once you've ranged the guy is really easy. It's ranging him that is pretty subjective. It will be impossible to know what he actually has in his range, whether he flips over AA or QQ.

This seems like the standard play, for sure. However I've been experimenting with just 4-bet jamming, even for a ridiculous overbet, if I get 3-bet with AA, especially against fishy villains. They just don't 3-bet very often, and their 3-bet/fold ranges are pretty static. They're either going to fold for a normal size 4-bet or stack off, so there is no incentive to let them see a flop. I've only done it twice, both times 200bb deep. Once I got called by 88, the other I got a fold from ATs (probably wasn't calling a 4-bet anyways).

Omg he has AA you prolly should have folded. Send this to bbv.

Wow big surprise there

Congrats for having advanced one more level. Indeed, if the donk is on donk-level 1 instead of 0 and will think "he must have AK", this is a great strat.

The last time I had KK, my $50 3bet was jammed on for $500 by a guy known as a level 1 donk. Sure enough, he had AK.

Another point to consider is that the 3better can have AK themselves. With this specific holding, they will probably call all-in but might be able to get away on most flop. (This also applies to shorter stacks and 3bet-jams)

I also have seen JJ 4bet-jammed as an overbet (as someone has posted above) by a donky player. I totally agree, they just don't know what to do with JJ, so they just want to avoid pot-flop. A buddy folded KK to a 250bb 4bet jam, only to get shown JJ. This fold might often be correct in the type of game we're in, but it was an unknown (later known as a donk)