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Deep stacked 1/2 with Top Two Pair facing big aggression

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01-09-2019 , 02:19 PM

snowfall

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 9

Live 1/2 game, hero is 20 something asian male, villain (SB) is 20 something white male who seems like a regular. We've been playing for a few hours and he seems to play TAG, has shown that he can bluff in a couple of big spots. Table dynamic is very wild with two extremely volatile players with deep stacks (UTG+2 and CO).

Hero in BB with A

UTG ($500) raises to 5
UTG+2 ($700) calls
HJ ($200) calls
CO ($550) calls
Button ($240) calls
SB ($540) calls
Hero raises ($800) to 30
Everyone calls 30.

6 players to a flop
(180 in pot)

Flop: K

Hero bets $70
folds to SB who raises to 220
Hero calls

($620 in pot) Turn is A

SB jams for 290

Hero?

Thanks

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01-09-2019 , 02:58 PM

ybyangben

enthusiast

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 94

What else can you do except snap call? If you fold this flop and turn, you should just fold pre.

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01-09-2019 , 03:15 PM

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

If you thought by some miracle he had a set on the flop and called, what would change on the turn when you improved and have to bet only $70 more than you did on flop?

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01-09-2019 , 03:18 PM

snowfall

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by ybyangben

What else can you do except snap call? If you fold this flop and turn, you should just fold pre.

What do you expect villain to show up with?

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01-09-2019 , 03:24 PM

snowfall

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude404

If you thought by some miracle he had a set on the flop and called, what would change on the turn when you improved and have to bet only $70 more than you did on flop?

Is this the right way to think about it? Is it a miracle to hit a set in a 6 way pot?Hero was getting 3-1 to call on the flop against an aggressive player who can have some bluffs. On the turn, how often will villain bluff? Is he showing up with bluffs often enough to make the call profitable?

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01-09-2019 , 03:44 PM

canadiasian

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 227

Pre raise size needs to be larger. There's $33 in the pot when it gets to your action - I wouldn't mind a $60-80 raise here. You're OOP for the rest of the hand, and the squeeze out of the BB with the action looks incredibly bluffy. Taking down a 16bb pot pre uncontested is never a bad thing.

Given SB has a great price to call pre and flop, he can have a wide range here (set, flopped two pair, 42 for straight, turned two pair (A3, A5), straight draws (46, 67), etc.

Flop should be a fold most of the time.

As played, even if you discount all bluffs (straight draws), if you called flop, then Turn is definitely a call since you now beat all two pair combos.

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01-09-2019 , 03:44 PM

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

I could be wrong, but I think you misplayed every street.

Pre--You would be better flatting the $5 than going to $30. There is already $35 in dead money in the pot. This should be $55 or more in a normal game. With a wild dynamic, I would make it $75 and play against the wild childs or take it down.

Flop--I check here. We made our bloated multi-way pot OOP and we should probably act accordingly. As played, I find a fold here. SB is either bluffing or he has us crushed (set), or beaten badly (2-pair). If we are not folding flop we should shove. Unless in some universe you are calling then folding the turn.

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01-09-2019 , 03:47 PM

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowfall

Is this the right way to think about it? Is it a miracle to hit a set in a 6 way pot?Hero was getting 3-1 to call on the flop against a bluffy player. On the turn, how often will villain bluff? Is he showing up with bluffs often enough to make the call profitable?

Maybe "miracle" was too strong of a word. There are also several other combos the SB could have. So not only could SB have complete air here, he could have hands like KXs. I wouldnt even rule out K5 or K3. Has this scenario occurred before where SB calls raises from early position? What were his holdings? Has he bluffed against you or was it against weaker players?

If SB was described as a tight nit, that MIGHT be a different story. A street where you improve has now got you thinking he might have a set because he shoved? Maybe he's trying to make YOU think he has AK......

I am never folding in this spot against this player. Never.

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01-09-2019 , 03:49 PM

Viral25

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,857

No offense, but this hand is butchered pretty badly.

Preflop is way too small, i'd go at least 50. We are deep, OOP, at a wild table. Our range is likely fairly weak considering how good of a spot it is to steal, and even a hand as strong as this one needs some fold equity. Making it 30 is probably a bigger mistake than whatever happens postflop.

Having said that, flop is a pretty standard b/f spot. We bet into 6 opponents and the SB probably has the strongest range to boot.

AP, I'm fairly sure we are not even getting correct odds on the turn to call off, but we might as well after going this far.

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01-09-2019 , 03:51 PM

#10

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude404

One thing I would be fairly certain of, SB does not have AK unless OP's read on him is 100% off.

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01-09-2019 , 03:53 PM

#11

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiasian

You're folding TPTK to a player that has a propensity to bluff in big spots? What would the flop had to of been for you to see the turn? Three aces????

EDIT: Did not see where SB raised on flop my mistake

Last edited by thedude404; 01-09-2019 at 03:57 PM. Reason: EDIT: Did not see where SB raised on flop my mistake

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01-09-2019 , 03:54 PM

#12

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

One thing I would be fairly certain of, SB does not have AK unless OP's read on him is 100% off.

Where did I say I thought SB had AK? I didnt.

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01-09-2019 , 03:59 PM

#13

weirdmonkey

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 639

I'd make it bigger pre. $50 or $55. After that it's tough. I think you've gotta call though.

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01-09-2019 , 04:01 PM

#14

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude404

Where did I say I thought SB had AK? I didnt.

Ok, fine, Maybe he's trying to make YOU think he has AK......

He is never ever ever ever repping AK here. If he is bluffing, he is repping a set.

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01-09-2019 , 04:05 PM

#15

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

Ok, fine, Maybe he's trying to make YOU think he has AK......

He is never ever ever ever repping AK here. If he is bluffing, he is repping a set.

Just curious why you think this. Are you saying that he would have 4 bet if he had AK in SB after everyone called the $30 pre? Thanks.

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01-09-2019 , 04:14 PM

#16

donkatruck

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,911

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude404

Just curious why you think this. Are you saying that he would have 4 bet if he had AK in SB after everyone called the $30 pre? Thanks.

I'm saying a TAG would 3-bet a $5 lol raise pre from the SB with AK 100% of the time. Even if OP missed the mark on typing SB as a TAG, he is almost certainly not a nit or station.

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01-09-2019 , 04:25 PM

#17

thedude404

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 1,447

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

I'm saying a TAG would 3-bet a $5 lol raise pre from the SB with AK 100% of the time. Even if OP missed the mark on typing SB as a TAG, he is almost certainly not a nit or station.

Yep you are right. This was one of my first attempts to reply to one of these threads.

Sorry OP for butchering your thread. I need to read, comprehend, and think before I begin to type my responses.

That being said, I am still calling off on turn as played.

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01-09-2019 , 04:50 PM

#18

canadiasian

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude404

Ideally three aces.

I think the key takeaway is that SB's range is very wide here - basically ATC.

$3 to complete the initial preflop raise with 5 players in front, 1 left to act.

An additional $25 to call the second preflop raise with $185 in the pot and closing the action.

Flop is check call or bet fold.

But still call on the Turn due to beating two pair hands now.

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01-10-2019 , 12:46 AM

#19

aisrael01

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 415

SB is very wide since he is last to act and closing the action. He has all 6 combos of K3s, K5s, 35s, in addition to his 6 combos of sets. We're ahead close to half the time here, making this a mandatory call.

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01-10-2019 , 02:21 PM

#20

snowfall

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by aisrael01

Do you think he ever has K3o, K5o, 35o? What about 42s and 42o?

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01-10-2019 , 02:22 PM

#21

snowfall

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkatruck

Ok, fine, Maybe he's trying to make YOU think he has AK......

He is never ever ever ever repping AK here. If he is bluffing, he is repping a set.

Agreed.

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01-10-2019 , 07:08 PM

#22

canadiasian

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 227

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowfall

Do you think he ever has K3o, K5o, 35o? What about 42s and 42o?

Depends on the player.

He could also have KsXs here some of the time.

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01-10-2019 , 08:03 PM

#23

PFunkaliscious

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 3,061

Never folding the turn once you called the CR on the flop.

Should you call the CR on the flop? I dunno. Your bet on the flop is so weak that your hand is underrepped and V could be taking something like KQ and value raising you or A5 and turning it into a bluff. And then thinking that he got there when the A peels on the turn.

In a vacuum, fold to the CR on the flop. Don't fold turn once you call flop though

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01-11-2019 , 02:42 PM

#24

Ramson11

stranger

Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowfall

UTG ($500) raises to 5
UTG+2 ($700) calls
HJ ($200) calls
CO ($550) calls
Button ($240) calls
SB ($540) calls
Hero raises ($800) to 30
Everyone calls 30.

6 players to a flop
(180 in pot)

Flop: K

Hero bets $70
folds to SB who raises to 220
Hero calls

($620 in pot) Turn is A

SB jams for 290

Hero?

Thanks

This is an exploitable fold, sb flopped open ender, I don’t think a set raises 3x on such a dry board especially since everyone else folds unless he puts you on AK. This is almost definitely 24. If he has 2 pair, he wouldn’t jam on the ace since AK smashes your 3 bet range. I think at the very best case he has Ks3s.

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01-11-2019 , 02:45 PM

#25

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowfall

UTG ($500) raises to 5
UTG+2 ($700) calls
HJ ($200) calls
CO ($550) calls
Button ($240) calls
SB ($540) calls
Hero raises ($800) to 30
Everyone calls 30.

6 players to a flop
(180 in pot)

Flop: K

Hero bets $70
folds to SB who raises to 220
Hero calls

($620 in pot) Turn is A

SB jams for 290

Hero?

Thanks

Preflop is way way way too small. This should be like 50.

Pretty clear call on turn as played. We only lose to 55/33 realistically. If we aren't calling it off on this turn, we should be folding the flop.

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