Deep Stack Play vs. Normal Stack Play in LLSNL
03-16-2012
, 12:16 PM
Quote:
So think about how powerful that is, its almost like you are playing with 4 cards. I raise $25 with 98s from UTG+1, get two ABC callers (CO and BTN) eff stacks 250bb, the flop comes
Flop($75) J
7
3
I c-bet $40, V1 folds, V2 calls
Turn($155) 2
I check, V2 bets $80, I call
River($315) A
I bet $200, V2 says, "I had you" and he shows me JT and then folds.
Flop($75) J
7 3I c-bet $40, V1 folds, V2 calls
Turn($155) 2
I check, V2 bets $80, I call
River($315) A
I bet $200, V2 says, "I had you" and he shows me J
T and then folds.
It might just be that I kinda write this stuff off as FPS pissing contest stuff whereas maybe it is really just another way to up our winrate.
Gyou'llfindmecomfortablysittingattheshallowstackta ble,I'mtheguywiththebiggeststackG
03-16-2012
, 12:16 PM
Quote:
It will take me a while, dgiharris, to fully grasp your responses to my various questions. So, thanks in advance. Generally speaking, I guess what you are saying is that playing deep is situational---dependent on your image, other player types, stack-sizes and so on---but there's much scope for playing hands in different ways. I like the omaha analogy a great deal, i.e., those 'spots' where you effectively have 4 hole cards to 'rep' a range of hands, as this kind of epitomises the advantage of playing deep.
My line of thinking about tightening one's EP-MP raising range has two origins:
(1) A fear of spewing chips, when deep, insofar, you can raise wide preflop, whiff a flop, c-bet, check turn once called and then give up to a river bet. Do this more than once, then other players will see a pattern and call preflop all the time, which can be daunting, especially if you keep whiffing. (Alternatively, you can get caught double and triple barreling, which generates a similar response from villains). So, that's one reason why I would tighten pre-flop and play more from position (and hopefully the other players don't adjust to your tighter range and you can exploit their looseness preflop).
(2) If the table is full of 50-150BB stacks and you're 300BB+, you can get targeted somewhat from all sides. So, it's like wow, open with AQ from MP and all of sudden it's a six-way multiway pot, with players c/shoving from all directions, because they're 50BB short-stacks, you're a deep-stack LAG, and they can double-, triple- and sometimes quadruple-up in one hand (I'm exaggerating here a little, I admit).
Much of what you proposed in your initial OP (and correct me if I'm wrong) involved more deep stack v. deep stack play, where it sounds like your concern is with creating as many heads-up scenarios as possible, especially against Villains who play more ABC and therefore can be exploited by semi-bluff play (as with your 98 example) and expanded 3- and 4-bet ranges. Generally, when deep I try and stay clear of other deep stacks, because they are usually strong regs and there's also greater RIO issues. But, you seem to be suggesting this kind of strategy is too conservative, especially if you believe you have a post-flop edge.
In the end, though, do you have to spend a decent amount of time 300 BB deep, before you can really start combating and exploiting other deep stacks? I mean, I play a 100 BB capped game, so if I'm 300 BB+ I've usually won 1-2 BIs---that's a nice session. Surely, the table dynamics and experience levels have to be appropriate, before we start extending into the "D" strat wise and risk turning a good win into a regretful loss?
My line of thinking about tightening one's EP-MP raising range has two origins:
(1) A fear of spewing chips, when deep, insofar, you can raise wide preflop, whiff a flop, c-bet, check turn once called and then give up to a river bet. Do this more than once, then other players will see a pattern and call preflop all the time, which can be daunting, especially if you keep whiffing. (Alternatively, you can get caught double and triple barreling, which generates a similar response from villains). So, that's one reason why I would tighten pre-flop and play more from position (and hopefully the other players don't adjust to your tighter range and you can exploit their looseness preflop).
(2) If the table is full of 50-150BB stacks and you're 300BB+, you can get targeted somewhat from all sides. So, it's like wow, open with AQ from MP and all of sudden it's a six-way multiway pot, with players c/shoving from all directions, because they're 50BB short-stacks, you're a deep-stack LAG, and they can double-, triple- and sometimes quadruple-up in one hand (I'm exaggerating here a little, I admit).
Much of what you proposed in your initial OP (and correct me if I'm wrong) involved more deep stack v. deep stack play, where it sounds like your concern is with creating as many heads-up scenarios as possible, especially against Villains who play more ABC and therefore can be exploited by semi-bluff play (as with your 9
8 example) and expanded 3- and 4-bet ranges. Generally, when deep I try and stay clear of other deep stacks, because they are usually strong regs and there's also greater RIO issues. But, you seem to be suggesting this kind of strategy is too conservative, especially if you believe you have a post-flop edge. In the end, though, do you have to spend a decent amount of time 300 BB deep, before you can really start combating and exploiting other deep stacks? I mean, I play a 100 BB capped game, so if I'm 300 BB+ I've usually won 1-2 BIs---that's a nice session. Surely, the table dynamics and experience levels have to be appropriate, before we start extending into the "D" strat wise and risk turning a good win into a regretful loss?
As to #1, I'm not advocating we raise from EP every orbit, just enough in a session such that a raise from EP doesn't read like AA/KK. Don't you hate it when you get AA/KK in EP, raise and everyone snap folds to you??? These OOP raises should fold in to your overall game and take advantage of table dynamics and your image. My spidey-sense tells me you may be missing some opportunities.
As to #2, if your raises get called by 3+ villians than you are not raising enough or properly adjusting to table dynamics unless you want to get called by 3+ villians, i.e. you have 22-88 and want a pot sweetener so that if you flop gin you can extract max value and stack a station.
Incidentally, players are subconsciously afraid of the deep stacks...
But yes, majority of my posts dealt w deep stack vs deep stack. Avoiding other deep stacks is wise if you are the weaker player but is a lost opportunity if you are the stronger player. As your comfort level increases as a deep stack, you will feel better about engaging other deep stacks.
Engaging other deep stacks is how I get my 400bb+ sessions as my owning them all session has a habit of tilting them.
