Recently there have been a rash of postings in which Hero (and Villains) is 300bb+ deep...

The problem I have in many of those postings is that a lot of the advice is more or less the same as if Hero was 100bb deep.

What I wanted was to discuss the ways in which the game is different the deeper you and your villains are:

What are your thoughts on preflop raising, 3-bet ranges, and calling ranges?

What are your thoughts on drawing, floating, semibluffing, and stealing?

How does image (both yours and your villains) impact your play pre and post?

When you are this deep, what are you comfortable stacking off with?

What are the trade offs between fold equity and implied odds as you get deeper? What are some situations in which one becomes more important than the other?

Examples/situations to help elaborate a point are welcome as well as just general poker theory.

Lastly, this is a complex topic so feel free to discuss any other points I may have missed or just elaborate on the one or two points you are comfortable discussing.

I think you have to start with game structure first. Then you have to come up with a deep stack game plan.

My theory is you have to treat the chips like a tournament. Ex. 300bbs if you lose you go to 100bbs. Your stack off ranges should be snug deep.

Ranges shouldn't change much at all.

3betting still seems worthless with 3+ ss at the table.

Without a dynamic of avg stack 300+bbs, then I see no reason why we still shouldn't be playing our normal 100bb capped strategy.

"I would love to hear everyone's opinion on this".

All the books say things like, 'good players want to play as deep as possible because the bad players have more chances to make bigger mistakes.' But that's not necessarily true.

Decent mid-stack (100BB) players aren't automatically great when deep-stacked. They might normally be able to make good pure math decisions, but--especially if they're not used to being that deep--the real meaning/value of the money might cause other errors.

I try to keep in mind that the action players often have more experience playing truly deep than I do, because they're laggier style gives them a deep stack more often than my more plodding, low-variance style. So I may get deep with him and be licking my chops because I have him deep, when he's doing the exact same thing.

How deep do you have to be to consider set over set?

Example: I had 99 on a 984K2r board the other day and other guy bet river for 80 BB into ~200 BB pot, I shipped for 130 BB more not even considering the possibility I was beat. Is this a call here?

I've been working on a really really long post on this subject but basically small pairs and small suited connectors go down in value, axs goes up in value, big connectors (t9, jt, qj) go up in value, and you gotta play more pot control.

We need to know what the general action of the hand is but 44/22 might become a call here although there is a big difference between what hands can you raise with vs what hands you can call with.

So you shoved 210bbs otr total. Now ask yourself what hand that you beat is calling 210bbs total otr?

Well I obviously was hoping he would call with worse sets, but I dont know for sure! Which is why I'm asking here =)

Guy seemed pretty standard reg.

Anyway, if answer is that shove is good, then how deep do we have to be to make it not so good?

Sorry probably a really newbie question.

This is a good start,

Small Pairs, don't go down in value they go up in value in position vs a decent range that will pay you off.

Axs Is the same we want to flush over flush deep and at 100bbs.

Fold everything else/3bet.

As for pot control, no, you don't need to check to have pot control. Pot control using your position and creative betsizing. Fish don't think in terms of bbs, they think in terms of $ signs.

If hero has 99, then V can call with 88, 44, 22, K9 (possibly), and obviously KK.

There are more combos of 88/44/22/K9 (although we can discount this slightly, but still most 1/2 people never fold 2 pair), than there are of KK.


so I don't know why you would say "what hands can you beat?" We have the 2nd nuts here. A lot of worse hands. I've seen Vs ship way worse for deeper.

So much truth in above that it's sick. You're sick, sir.

I think being in a decent mid-stack player in today's poker economy is probably more advantageous than being a good deep-stack player.

Small pairs go down in value the deeper you get because you begin to have to worry about set over set. Basically people stop giving easy action with top pair and over pair hands once you get more than 200xbb deep which greatly decreases the value of small pairs.

No offense, you play a short stack game and I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about.

What's the difference of a 60bb cap game with loose LA players and 100bb cap with tight players?

Your very naive, if you come to commerce or hg. Both 60bb max games. You will see several guys everynight sitting on 600+bb stacks.

The fact that you even said that. Is really just pathetic. "Yeah 40bb difference really matters,meh".

Good post OP. You are bringing up good discussion questions. Unfortunately I don't think there are too many folks on this forum who have a lot of experience adjusting/playing deep that will be able to provide a good discussion. This is somewhat evidenced by some of the initial replies that say that few adjustments are needed. I would try MSFR.

The general answer is that deep:
- position matters more
- preflop hand value equity matters less
- skill differential matters more
- more hands (e.g. small PPs) become RIO vs. decent players

Basically, it becomes a game of position (in order to use our postflop skill to out play our opponents) and nuts/nut draws. Draws to non-nut hands drop in value. For those of you who know PLO, it's a similar adjustment that is needed the the one you have to make when you go from NLHE=>PLO.

+1. PB - no offense, but you are out of your depth. Literally.

Pretty basic stuff that good players use with 100bb+ stacks.

Ok since I'm so unqualified. Go ask some pro the difference between deep stacks in a 100b game and 60bb game. They will laugh at you if you think its a difference.

The key part that links us all, We Play In Capped Buyin Structures

So if I'm not qualified no one on this forum is neither.

I think a lot depends on what I bought in for vs my current stack .. If I bought in for 250$ in a 1/2nl game and after a few hours my stack is around 500 to 600$ I am feeling pretty good.. And my range usually is about the same.... Alot of the times, I will tighten up my range, only because people tend to aim their aggression towards the deep stacks to double up on them...

my play is probably the same if i have bought-in for 400$ and I am 600$... I'm a little less crazy about stacking off, only because If i lose a pot for 300.... now I am stuck.... and my stack size is a little less intimidating

Usually my stack off range depends on the person i am in the pot with and their stack size.. and it depends on the board, If i feel confident on the flop, I've stacked off vs someone with AK before and took all his chips.... but alot of the time I'm not stacking off on someone unless I have top two on the flop... and the turn card is a blank....

as far as image, I've noticed when I am deep say around 700$ + I tend to get the benefit of the doubt... only because I am pretty aggressive...

As for my betting, I tend to float a bit more if I hit mid to bottom pair with a flush / straight draw, and if the turn is a scare card or something that has straight possiblities or w/e I bet it... why?? because your only getting called ( most of the time ) by better hands or similar hands as yours....

Implied odds.... It really depends on my hand and the people in the pot and my position..... i mean obviously if I am in late position and i catch a good part of the flop and the 3 guys in front of me bet 100, and then its two all in's..... I usually figure I am beat, unless I have the goods... And just because I am deep, doesnt mean i play like a wild man and go chasing cards in a big multi-way pot..

but a lot of my play also depends on the table / position and the villians.... If I am deep say over 600$, and the table goes totally crazy, I will tighten up...... no point in getting sacked with a bad hand vs a maniac....

Since 11t/setsy said I'm not qualified to chime in my own words. I decided to take some words from mpethy on playing deep.



So What Adjustments Do We Make When Playing Deep?

According to PNLHE:

1. Drawing hands go up in value. This should be obvious. Hands that want to build big pots post-flop become more valuable. This includes small and mid pocket pairs, suited aces and middle suited connectors.

2. Position becomes more important. It allows you to better exploit your informational advantage, as well as the fear one pair hands have of playing a big pot.

Combining these two adjustments suggests that we ought to be calling in position with a wide range of drawing hands, looking to flop two pair or better. Similarly, you are getting better implied odds to float on the flop if you flop a small piece of the board, such as if you call with 98s and flop one pair.

3. One pair hands go down in value. This is a function of stack to pot ratios. If your hand is most likely to flop as a top pair, it prefers really small SPRs, in the 4-7 neighborhood. These are basically impossible to achieve at a deep table. Since it is therefore going to be very difficult to maximize your profit with these hands, you should aim to play small-ish pots that will minimize the reverse implied odds these hands offer. You should pot control these hands to try and ensure that the final pot is 4-7 times the size of the final preflop pot.

4. Consider varying your raise sizes. You'll have to mix it up to avoid being readable, but it is worth thinking about incorporating 5bb and 2 bb raises into your preflop bet sizing to manipulate SPRs.

AA is an exception to this adjustment, according to PNLHE. While the authors sort of argue for at least considering making smaller raises preflop with hands like AK, AQ and QQ, they specifically exclude AA, asserting that it wins big pots post flop often enough to accept the consequences of awkward SPRs rather than raising smaller with it.

In addition to these adjustments, I favor the following adjustments as well:

5. Remember that 3 bet pots are no longer really deep. If someone raises to 4bb and you 3 bet it to 12bb, if he calls, the final preflop pot is 24bb-ish and SPR will be under 7 at 150bb effective stack size and about 9 if at 200bb effective stacks. These are workable SPRs for one pair hands. They are a little on the high side, but manageable.

6. Never fold a pocket pair if SPR is shaping up to be around 13. This requires an adjustment to your preflop strategy, if, like me, you normally fold small pocket pairs in early position. This is also an area in which you can get creative at manipulating SPR by changing your preflop bet sizing. For example, if you are 100bb deep and you raise to 4bb UTG with 55, and the button 3 bets you to 12bb, you are facing an SPR of 4-ish if you call, which is a horrible SPR for this hand. But suppose you are 200bb deep and you raise to 2bb UTG with 55 and the button 3 bets you to 8bb. Now the pot is 17, effective stacks are 192, and your SPR is 11. If he 3 bet you with a one pair hand, you basically have him right where you want him, playing a one pair hand with the opportunity to make really big post-flop mistakes.

I know, I know, we hate minraises. I'm just sayin' is all. ?

Also, if you are going to vary your preflop raises, you are going to have to balance. I would suggest doing so with some of your one pair hands that, if they can't get really low SPRs, play pretty well with really high SPRs. If you make small raises in EP with one pair hands and get 3 bet, you have the option of folding and losing less, or 4 betting and playing a pot with a really low SPR.

7. With your strong hands, prefer flop raises to turn raises. This just makes it easier to get all the money in because of the exponential increases in bet sizes. 100bb deep, I advocate usually just check/calling or flatting with a powerhouse such as a flopped set on a very dry board. deep, however, I think you have to suck it up and raise at least some of the time. I would probably pick the villains with the lowest c-bet %s to raise on dry flops, maximizing the probability that the bettor actually has a hand he can call a raise with.

8. Vary your 3 bet sizing. This is crucial, in my opinion. If you are value 3 betting, you want as low a SPR as you can get. If you are bluff or semi-bluff raising, you want a SPR as low as possible so that calling your c-bet does not necessarily commit the villain to the hand. Obviously, to vary your 3 bet sizing, you have to mix it up sometimes.

I actually hate this idea, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that:

9. Playing 200bb deep allows you the opportunity to run big multi-street bluffs that win big pots.

I personally think that this is usually FPS, but there are occasions where I can see this being a good play.

The adjustment below comes to us courtesy of Baluga Whale:

10. Since people call EP raises with hands that can crack AA, raise in EP with hands that can crack hands that are looking to crack AA.

Baluga specifically mentions adding to your range hands such as AJs, KQs and KJs.

"Enjoy"

There is no difference between a 60xbb hand or a 100xbb hand but there is a small difference between a 100xbb hand and a 150xbb hand and there is a much larger difference between a 100xbb hand and a 200xbb hand and there is a massive difference between a 100xbb hand and a 300xbb hand

And I never meant to say you aren't qualified, but your comments about pocket pairs are just wrong. Furthermore AXs doesn't have a lot of value HU in a SS game just because of the implied odds problem but that the deeper you go allows for over flushing people to become much much more profitable.

This might not make much sense but the deeper you become the more NLHE plays like PLO where PF hand selection and drawing to the nuts becomes more and more important. The game changes a lot when everybody at the table is over 200xbb deep and at a <100xbb cap game I just don't see that happening very often.

You guys all read this right?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78.../#post12118914

Isn't that the key when it gets deep. You have to figure out who is going to stack off with overpairs, top pair and weak two pairs on a wet boards with relative deep stacks. I've been guilty of folding bottom set when 500bb deep against an opponent in a 1-2 game only for him to show me aces.

oops/.

Good thread DGI.

I think the small pp thing is spot on because if a guy gets in for 300bb on a 25T board and you have 22 you're probably going to lose to 55 or TT.

In 300bb games you have to be careful 3betting medium strength hands (although you still should) because often big hands play better with high SPR's. If you're in a single raised pot with JJ or QQ villains often are not going to bluff huge or overplay because of the threat to their stack. If you 3b and they call they still have a lot of rope, and if the flop comes like 578ss they know you can't call if they raise.

I would say vs fish though, they're going to play 300bb like they play 100bb. Most of the time they won't put pressure on you. Most of the time they won't bluff or adjust to the pressure they can apply.

So I'm only worried if I'm that deep vs skilled players or aggro players who are going to bluff. If they're going to play straightforward I don't really care since I probably don't get 300bb in unless I have the nuts and they have a huge hand.

I actually disagree. If we're 300bb deep we have to be very careful about RIO for SC's and small pp's. If we're playing 98s we really want to hit a straight or fold people out with a draw.

If we hit a flush and 300bb goes in we're probably not good. We should still play those hands, but we need to be very careful about opponents ranges and realize that even vs fish that overplay, if they're getting a ton of chips in we may not be good.

I would also disagree with the part about varying raise sizes. I already vary raise sizes somewhat based on what I want to accomplish, but I don't think we need to start min raising pre or making it random sizes. Not sure exactly what that accomplishes.

nice post.
whats the difference between playing badminton and crocquet?

reminds me of a famous hand i heard about from the 10/20 game at lucky chances a few years back.

One of the young pros would buy in to cover the fish.
one rich fish, Bari, who is no longer a rich fish (he's still rich, btw),
bought in 40k (really only 1000bbs, since the min open is for $40, so it's essentially a 10/40 game.)
pro has him covered.
flop comes K94.
young pro has 99, and this is the hand he's been waiting to cooler the rich fish with.
problem is, Bari has KK.

the only thing worse than a rich fish who ceases to be a rich fish is a rich fish who ceases to be a fish.

I would play with Bari at napa valley, back when that game had no cap on the BI, and it was really juicy, and he was pretty clueless about poker then. Nice guy, and insanely rich from computers. obv very smart, and he applied himself to poker since then, and he's not exactly a tough player i dont want in my game, but he's no fish anymore, and its sickening.
standard stampler rant>>> DON"T TALK POKER AT THE TABLE<<<
DUCY????