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Old 08-09-2013, 02:20 PM   #1
pike58jack
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Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

So as title states this is a 1-1-2 game that we are playing deep effective stacks are 1800.

UTG- new player young and aggressive already saw him open and barrel multiple streets with 10 7 on AJ4 board shuts down on 7 river ends up good vs K 10 (2kish stack)

Button- my buddy (we drove out together). We play each other pretty hard tough opponent willing to make plays and good hand reader. Has a small tendency to good a little sheepish when playing hands for large # of BB it a little bit money but not truly since I have played in bigger buy in games with him before

BB- Hero. I decided to look like a douche and wearing silly hoodie hat sunglasses (not actually on cause I couldn't see) and these mardi gra beads that had a ceramic poker hand at the end. Not my normal attire just was dressing the part of douche fish. UTG seen me win a few hands no showdown. Attire and stack probably figures me for a complete tool. Buddy knows most of my game since we play a lot pots vs each other and talk strategy as well

UTG makes it 12 to go. He has been raising regularly 12-15 in the 3 rounds we have played.

Two callers.

Button makes it 50. This move could be a variety of hands he is not afraid to attack a light raiser in position.

BB hero looks down at 55's and calls. I opt to just call and not raise because first off while looking really strong to opponents to cold 4 bet there out of position also gets me into spew territory. Also my flat I want others to enter to give more value to set mining.

UTG reraises to 215 total 165 on top. So now the hand is getting interesting. Not sure if opponent thinks button is playing back at him or not but sizing is odd. I think 150-160 accomplishes the same thing while investing 55ish less into a pot when making a play and by river if he has a value hand he can bet a little larger other streets to make up lost ev pre.

Two 12 limpers fold button calls.

Hero? The buttons call at this point is premium holdings 95% of the time. Not sure range on UTG but doubt he gives up on this 4-bet pot that he has lead in. Pot now has over 500 in it. My call pot will be 670ish with 1600 effective stacks. Ok call?

So I opt to call thinking set over set sucks but implied odds outweighs reverse implied.

Pot 670

Dream flop. 665 two spades. I check. Looking back I like the weak donk bet 140ish to induce UTG but then again it might fold out button. Maybe we can discuss lead or check. UTG bets 280 and button calls pot now over 1200ish. My stack will be roughly 1400 after/if I call and pot grows to 1500. What is optimal play?...?
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:48 PM   #2
Neutrogena
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

There are a lot of assumptions to be made of ability of each players, and therefore expect super high variance in reads. I am going to write this post with the assumption that everyone has at least read a book or two and have basic understanding of range and position.

Your buddy should recognize that even though UTG may be loose, he's not loose UTG. On the other hand, I am not sure how comfortable your buddy is with deep stack to recognize that 3-betting in this spot against a new player without history could be a disaster with hands that don't flop well.

After button calls the 4-bet, I am going to assume that your buddy's range is heavily leaned toward PP and perhaps AQs/AQo+.

UTG should be almost entirely JJ+ and AK.

This is an easy flop to check (there are more hands in your range that missed than hit), expect UTG to c-bet, and depending on whether your buddy calls the button, I would either CR to setup turn shove or just CRAI.
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Old 08-09-2013, 04:11 PM   #3
pike58jack
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If you check raise how do you size it? 750 total 470 more? Leaving about 900ish behind for turn shove. I know UTG range should be tighter as does my buddy on the button. At the same time he was young and aggressive and knew we would know that his UTG range should be tighter. This was higher level thinking. I mean there was a reason why we were willing bought in and were playing this deep. Some players were playing 100 dollar stacks. I know this sounds cocky I truly don't mean it to just trying to explain the scene correctly.

I decided to shove flop figuring it would look like a flush draw or really badly played 10's or JJ's. I thought my hand is so well disguised my 4bet call shouldn't connect with that board to often. While maybe 67 suited is in my range sometimes so is AK suited and 78 suited but honestly most of those hands are all unlikely to be played out of position for that many big blinds by me. also some over pairs might be over played as i mentioned that I thought big pocket pairs would call off.
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Old 08-09-2013, 04:16 PM   #4
Neutrogena
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Shoving makes no sense unless you're trying to balance, which also makes no sense.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:06 PM   #5
Grigory
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Donking the flop looks really really weird, as I doubt you're going to get put on a bluff here, and wouldn't expect that you would play any big pair like that given how dry the board is.

CR seems to rep the nuts and maaaaybe a flush draw with AKs, but since ORs bet was so small I'd say you'd be more likely to just call. It's also rather likely that someone holds the As, so its hard to represent a bluff with this move.

Unfortunately its also possible that the FD could hurt your action. I think AKs is more in your range, and to a lesser extent your buddies, than Vil's. (Do we expect him to always 4bet it in this spot?).

This means that check / calling is slightly undesirable, but you definitely rep some scared JJ / QQ as well as FDs. Overall I think that its better than donking small, which can look like a blocking bet, but should make your opponent rather wary.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:14 PM   #6
Neutrogena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrogena View Post
Shoving makes no sense unless you're trying to balance, which also makes no sense.
Oops, I am really a bad reader when on the phone.

Ignore above post.

Shoving is fine here IMO.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:16 PM   #7
Dubey
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Fold preflop to the original 50 every time. Closing the action it's close, but probably still a fold.


As played, you are in a great spot because you are at the tip top of a very wide range. You played it so bad preflop that they cannot put you on a 6 or 55.

I think there's a good chance both villains have overpairs, and I don't want to give either an excuse to fold yet. I'd flat the flop bet, and consider a weak donk-lead of about $250 on any turn lower than a Jack, because that's what Villain would expect a fish to do with JJ, QQ, TT, 99 type hands.


What is your range in your buddy's eyes? What is his range?

Ideally I'd want to open the possibility of stacking both of them, which might actually be possible in this case since Villain 1 is a bit spazzy and your hand is super duper under repped in both villain's eyes. Plus they may both have premium hands and it's the safest flop of all time. I think flatting the flop and donk leading the turn to induce a spazz from Villain 1 is the best line.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:44 PM   #8
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Wow, very deep game. Iíve never played this deep, but for my own exercise Iíve provided my thoughts (whether good or bad) below.

I donít like the call with 55 on the button when the action is not closed. If itís likely that the BTN is just attacking a ďlight raiserĒ with light 3B then calling with 55 to set mine doesnít work too well because the BTN is not going to give you any money when you do hit your set. And why does the BTN think that UTG is opening light? You stated that UTG was new. Just because you saw him barrel multiple streets with T7 on an Ace high board, doesnít mean he doesnít have a tight range UTG. Did you see him open T7 UTG in that hand?

So now youíve called the 50, and the button has 4B to 215. Heís pretty much announcing he has a good hand. Unless thereís a history between BTN and UTG, this raise is pretty much saying AA or KK. The 4B sizing is a little much, but I donít think the sizing is that odd; UTG may be setting up for a really nice SPR should one of you call. If one of you calls itís an SPR of 3 ((1800-215)/504); great SPR for a big overpair. If he raises to 150, and one calls, then the SPR would be 4.5 ((1800-150)/374), which is still a great SPR for an overpair. Also by raising to 150 and the button calling for 150, itís giving you 3.7:1 (pot is 150+150+24+50 you already called) to call, which is a pretty good price. By raising it to 215, he is giving you 3:1 (215+215+24+50, 165 to call).

So the two limpers fold and the button calls making the pot, $504, and itís $165 to call (3:1), with implied odds of 12:1 (504+1585 (V stack) = 2089); of course this assumes that V has a hand like AA or KK and willing to play for stacks should you flop a set. As you mentioned though there are reverse implied odds with three people in the hand. As played I call the additional $165 because of the high chance that villain will play for stacks even this deep with an SPR of 2.4 ($1585/669 = 2.4)

On the flop you hit gin. Villians donít put you on 66 because there are already two sixes on the board. Big overpairs are looking good. The check is fine. I donít like donk betting; let UTG bet out and see if BTN wants to call a bet or even raise. So UTG bets $280 and button calls. Pot is now $1229, and the button and UTG have $1305 left. You have $1585. As far as how to proceed, I would assume UTG has AA or KK, and you need to decided what your buddy, BTN has, and what he will do with it. If you ship now, and UTG calls, will he stack off with a big overpair (AA-QQ)? Will BTN see your ship as a bluff or from a hand like JJ-77? If you ship now, and UTG folds, will BTN stack off with a medium overpair like JJ or TT? If you ship now, can both find a fold with a big overpair? Remember, right now, theyíve put in less than a 1/3 of their stacks.

Absent any reads, my default play would be to shove now, thinking that UTG or BTN will look me up with AA or KK.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:50 AM   #9
Jihad2
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Fold pf every time. This is a really bad hand to play like this.

Nothing matters post. It's all going in the middle. You already appear incredibly bad with this line, so continue and CR.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:57 AM   #10
Neutrogena
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Zero View Post
So now youíve called the 50, and the button has 4B to 215. Heís pretty much announcing he has a good hand. Unless thereís a history between BTN and UTG, this raise is pretty much saying AA or KK. The 4B sizing is a little much, but I donít think the sizing is that odd; UTG may be setting up for a really nice SPR should one of you call. If one of you calls itís an SPR of 3 ((1800-215)/504); great SPR for a big overpair. If he raises to 150, and one calls, then the SPR would be 4.5 ((1800-150)/374), which is still a great SPR for an overpair. Also by raising to 150 and the button calling for 150, itís giving you 3.7:1 (pot is 150+150+24+50 you already called) to call, which is a pretty good price. By raising it to 215, he is giving you 3:1 (215+215+24+50, 165 to call).
You're not analyzing this correctly. If the argument is that set mining is not profitable because our opponents are not going to pay off our set with a wide range, that's fine.

However, if the argument is that both opponents have very tight range and presumably are going to stack off because of SPR, then this is a very easy call.

55 has no value other than to set mine for implied value.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:26 AM   #11
quesuerte
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Fold pre cause we are OOP and not closing action.
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:31 AM   #12
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

I don't mind the call on the 50, it is thin and I would fold a lot also but your deep enough to set mine for 50. When UTG reraises it becomes real thin and this should be a fold. OOP with a small pocket pair and facing multiple villains, your not going to be able to stick around without hitting flop hard and your potentially pay off is less then 15-1. Heads up against a villain I have a good read on and know will stack off with an over pair, I'll take close to 10-1, but here I want well over 15-1.

As played, check flop as UTG is going to c-bet here probably close to 100% of the time. UTGs bet size and Btn call puts this neatly into the toss up zone when it gets back to Hero. If the pot was smaller I would call and let somebody bet into turn or lead if a flush hits. If the pot was bigger, then it would be an easy shove. As played shoving is a bit big but flatting looks out of place also. I'm inclined to shove, as villains may read it for a flush draw and even a very aggressive villain is likely to slow down on turn here. I not opposed to flatting though, particularly if you think UTG is aggressive enough to bet almost all turns, in which cast check/shove turn may be more profitable.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:34 PM   #13
pike58jack
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I got to say I really am surprised at all the players that say fold the fives pre for 50. This is live low no limit where rarely do you see 4-bets. I was shocked to see it repopped. So my price was assumed to be 50 I figured UTG would at least call and fair chance one if not both limpers would then feel inclined to call due to "pot odds" giving my hand even more value. Action surprised me with the 4-bet. Now I had to make a decision 3-1 pre with implied odds after didn't see like a bad call. It has started to become comical how many people answer posts with fold pre or bet more. I think some of you just cut and paste from different pages.

UTG was a young kid actually both me and my buddy would also be consider young kids. He had been sitting for roughly 2 orbits in that time I saw him open the action 6-8ish times for a raise. The only hand I saw him flip was 10 7. He bought in for 2k which besides me and my buddy was way above the norm. His aggressive factor before this pot also suggested he was looking to be very LAG. That actually made me believe I could only stack one player not both if I hit my set. My buddy won't play for stacks three way this deep without close to the best of it.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:38 PM   #14
Dubey
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

In order to profitably call 50, you have to know that you are up against hands that will pay you off when you hit. By your own read of button, you had little indication that this was the case when you called the 50. I like the call of the 4-bet better, once you'd invested 50, because now you have a lot more information, and are likely to get paid off huge when your set hits.


When it was 50 to call, by your own reads, you have both players on a wide range. Therefore, it is probably not a good spot to set mine at that price.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #15
CallMeVernon
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

To the people who are saying "fold pre" for $50, maybe you don't realize that we are $1800 deep in this spot? That is 36:1 stack odds. Mathematically it is the same as calling a $12 open when $432 deep, which no one would object to even if we were not closing the action.

The best argument for folding for $50 is quesuerte's--namely, that we are not closing the action and might have to face a 4bet--but if UTG has been raising a lot without regard for position, then it's unlikely he has a hand to 4bet with.

As played, any raise looks incredibly strong, so I'm shoving and hoping someone puts me on a scared middle pair or a flush draw.

EDIT: I misread the OP--thought it was 165 total. 165 on top is way closer than I had originally thought, but still, we are still getting about 11:1 stack odds. What kinds of hands would your buddy on the button call this strong raise with? If they both have strong ranges here I think I could still call, since in order to "make up" the price of the call I only have to stack one of them.

Last edited by CallMeVernon; 08-10-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:08 AM   #16
pike58jack
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UTG ended up folding immediately to my check shove. My buddy folded queens face up and was clearly irritated and tilted when I folded face down
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:11 AM   #17
pike58jack
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Oh and callmevernon I am right there with you regarding with the math of the hand
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:24 PM   #18
CallMeVernon
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by pike58jack View Post
UTG ended up folding immediately to my check shove. My buddy folded queens face up and was clearly irritated and tilted when I folded face down
If your buddy is folding QQ then that makes calling the 4bet wrong in retrospect. This is one of the hands we wanted to get tons of value from.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:43 PM   #19
Dubey
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Also why I prefer a call on the flop rather than a shove. Don't want to give big overpairs an excuse to fold yet. The pot is so big that you only need 1 more street of value to get it in. It is safe enough to wait for the turn or river to get the money in and give these 2 villains a chance to hang themselves.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:56 PM   #20
Neutrogena
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That's being result oriented.

Which range do you think looks stronger, the one that calls the flop OOP after calling a 4bet pre, or the one CR'ing?
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:04 PM   #21
eldiesel
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

You have the implied odds on the $50 to mine, not on the extra $165, you'd have to know you would stack one of the two, and get about 1/3 of the other's stack. (As it is we hit the set and didn't make nearly enough to justify calling the extra 165. We played it too fast though and made well over the IO for the first $50, so for people saying don't even cold call the $50, you're off.)

AP, c/c the flop. I know the results are there, but before I read them this was a c/c in my mind. Checking the turn also. Stacks ott are about a PSB for everyone. I'd expect V1 to just shove, maybe he goes 1/2 pot. If he goes 1/2 pot I c/c that and then lead shove otr for about 600 into 3K.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:24 PM   #22
Dubey
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Re: Deep 1-1-2 4-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrogena View Post
That's being result oriented.

Which range do you think looks stronger, the one that calls the flop OOP after calling a 4bet pre, or the one CR'ing?


a few things:

1. Hero has shown no aggression in this hand.
2. as per OP, Villain probably percieves Hero as fishy
3. Villain 2 presumably knows Hero's game inside out. With moves like calling $200 preflop with 55 in his repertoire, I don't think we've given either villain enough information on our hand yet to get them to fold a big hand.
4. The flop bet is smallish. I think smooth calling the flop here still leaves us with a pretty wide percieved range of 66, 56, 55, 88+ with a lot of emphasis on the 88+.
5. Villain 1 is a bit spazzy, but not likely to call off 900 BBs without the goods.
6. PSR is already close to 1. There's only a few scary cards in the deck that can hurt our hand. We only need 1 more street of action to get our stack in, and it doesn't have to be now.
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