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Old 07-24-2017, 07:09 PM   #1
djevans
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Dealing with light 3better deep

So I get AdJd UTG and go $15 with $1500 behind

Player to my left 3bets to $55 with pocket 4's with $4000 behind

Another player calls

I tank fold - a little weak but the flop is JT387 and I would of won vs 66 and 44.

I only found out he was 3betting 44 because the other player called it gets checked down, but I feel like he is 3betting me a lot.

4bet light? I could change seats but there wasn't one open. I had a tough time figuring out what to do in this spot.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:11 PM   #2
ImAllInNow
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Choose hands to 4-bet that aren't just QQ+, AK. Hands like AQo-ATo and AJs-A8s seem like good ones to choose. Don't start 4-betting hands like 88-JJ and AQs since those play better as calls.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:13 PM   #3
JB Clark
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

40 to win 130 is never a fold from.any pos.

Folding AJo is prob fine

4betting is ok too but i probably never fold here. Folding hu seems fine but pot odds are pot odds
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:15 PM   #4
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Never 4betting Ajdd, call and play some postflop yo especially if he's 3betting 44
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:20 PM   #5
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

How about you just solidify your own ranges pre and play post. I also don't understand the reaction to snap-look to adjust bc you saw a single hand.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:28 PM   #6
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

What stakes are you playing and what are typical opening sizes? If you are opening smaller then normal then villain may think you are opening small to set a price or see a flop cheap. Increasing your opening size may stop or slow him down.

How often if villain 3 betting you and is he 3 betting others? Does position matter? Trying to get a feel for how wide his range is and if he is targeting you specifically, is raising in EP to isolate or is generally aggressive. How you should react depends a bit on how wide his range is.

In general if he is really aggressive then open your 4 betting range. Consider some 4 bet bluffs if he has a fold button. Consider some limp/calls to keep pot size under control. If he has some light raises but isn't doing it a whole lot then narrow your opening range so you have fewer hands that have to fold and open your 4 betting range a bit.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:29 PM   #7
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

When I was first coming up learning how to play live poker, I too would
overfold to 3!s simply because they were so infequent and always signified a nutted hand.

As u move up in stakes and face more aggro villians, you simply cannot overfold.

Look at stove and figure out your own opening range and design a defend range. AJs should definitely not be folding
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:38 AM   #8
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

I suck at deepstack, but my two worthless cents:

If he's 3betting you a lot, maybe don't open as light? Limp/calling is going to be far easier to play due to big stacks / disguised hand than raise/calling which shortens stacks / narrows our range. And maybe things differ in a deep game, but I consider opening AJs in EP pretty light (but that also might just be me).

And doesn't position trump all, especially when deep? Immediate pot odds don't mean **** if we're OOP with deepstacks behind. I highly doubt playing this hand OOP to the guy with initiative is going to be a big winner, and it's possible (???) it might not even profitable, especially against a skilled opponent. I think we're being pretty results oriented in this spot, since the vast majority of the time we'll whiff the flop and simply have to check/fold, and other times he'll actually have a bigger Ace and we'll be unfortunate enough to flop one / flop a J when he has QQ+/set. And even given the hands we both have here, think about who is in the lead when small stacks go in postflop versus big stacks (i.e. seems to me we mostly have low IO when we hit our hand and are best, and have high RIO when we hit our hand and are worse).

And the most obvious of obvious answers: seat change (this isn't close, imo, and we probably shouldn't even get involved in a hand until we do so).

Gbut,IsuckatdeepstackG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 07-25-2017 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:11 PM   #9
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
Choose hands to 4-bet that aren't just QQ+, AK. Hands like AQo-ATo and AJs-A8s seem like good ones to choose. Don't start 4-betting hands like 88-JJ and AQs since those play better as calls.
great advice
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:15 PM   #10
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

pretty lol advice actually

the original fold is terrible and you shouldn't fold like that
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:21 PM   #11
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

good luck 4-betting oop deep with ATo lemme know how that works for you lol
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:46 PM   #12
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

I'm actually working on exactly this in my own game at the moment. I don't have the answers, but I do have some pointers.

First of all, make sure the person is really 3b you light. In this case, his 3b really doesn't carry the same weight as a normal 3b. He's still only putting in less than 4% of your stack. That's roughly like a raise to 20 with 500 behind.

For this particular hand, I think calling is best.

If someone is actually playing a reasonable light 3b game against you, you need to divide your raising range into three or four sections, depending on whether you choose to sometimes defend by calling.

The first section should have hands that you're going to 4b for value. Perhaps that's something like TT+, AQs+. You're not necessarily willing to get AIPF with these, but you believe they're likely ahead of a light 3b range.

The second section should consist of hands that you're going to call light 3b with. I think AdJd is likely the top of that range. This range should be the best hands you're not quite willing to 4b for value.

The third section should be hands you will 4b as bluffs. These should be the worst hands that you're not folding.

The fourth section should be hands that you fold. These are obviously the worst hands.

From top to bottom:
4b for value (best)
call (next best)
4b as bluffs (weaker)
fold (weakest)


I'm still working to figure out the ratios of these four sections. That will determine the ratio of calls to raises (both bluff and value) and the ratio of value raises to bluff raises.

For the raising hands, at each iteration of the raising game, you should reduce your value range and your bluffing range proportionally to each other, calling with the value hands you're not RR with and folding the bluffing hands you're not RR with. Thus, at each stage you'll RR with some range (mixing value and bluffs), call with some range (the best value hands from the previous raise that you're not raising again for value), and folding some range (some of your bluffs from the previous range).

At each stage, your raising range gets more polarized, with the middle hands becoming the ones that you call with.

You may choose to have no calling range, in which case you'd value raise the strongest hands, bluff raise the next strongest, and drop the weakest.

If you have a calling range, your raising range will get increasingly polarized, with the middle of the range turning into calls. If you have no calling range, you're raising range will be unipolar (only the best hands), with the worse hands being folded.

Suited aces and suited connectors both have some features that make them suitable for bluff raising. Both have playability post flop, since they hit the flop in some way with relatively high frequency. In addition, as the hand develops, you can tell whether you're gaining or losing equity (for example, by extending a backdoor draw or adding a pair to a draw). Contrast this to hands like small PP, which are basically hoping for lightning and either "get there" in one fell swoop or not at all.

Suited aces have the advantage of card removal, since they reduce the likelihood of AA, AK, and AQs in your opponent's hand. They also have roughly 30% equity AIPF against strong ranges (such as 31% against TT+, AK). Obviously, if you flop an ace, you'll have to proceed carefully. If your opponent doesn't bluff enough, this isn't necessarily a problem since if he's shoveling money in on an A-hi board you can be pretty sure he isn't turning a PP into a bluff. Lastly, every once in a blue moon, you'll overflush someone. Obviously you win all of those, which will tend to be huge pots and have outsize effects on your EV.

Suited connectors have more playability, since they can flop OESDs and BDSD, which tend to be better hidden and thus more deceptive. They also have good equity against a strong range (30% against TT+, AK). If they hit 2P, it will also often be well hidden and you won't have to worry as much about the connected nature of the board giving your opponent straight draws. OTOH, you're not going to be digging life if it's flush over flush.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:04 AM   #13
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

I dunno AJs should be used as a 4b at least some of the time. I let pot odds be my guide. If im always supposed to at least call, then im gonna 3bet sometimes too

This hand is pretty eaay because we should never fold 3way and should 4b fairly frequently (20%ish). It only gets hard here when it folds around to HU and folding is an option
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:14 AM   #14
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

If you want to be an the aggressive side choose hands to 4! that you will fold to a shove. A5 and T9 Except AA that will be shoved. I mention the suits to limit the number of hands you do this. Else you'll be playing too wide with all A5s and T9s. Choose at random a suit and attach two no gap connectors to it. After that if you win look for big huge hands in the back and to the same but now you may get called or raised.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:49 AM   #15
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Heh heh i was actually trying to figure out a way to ramdomize. Using the suits is a great idea. Pretty sure u should 4ball here 20% but 25% seems cool too
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:33 AM   #16
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

1) It is safe to assume at 1/2 oe 1/3 that a player is not 3 betting light until there is reasonable evidence otherwise. as such, folding this hand is pretty standard without the read you ended up getting off the hand. AJs ought to be one of your weakest UTG hands.

2) 3 betting from MP against an UTG raise with 44 is absolutely terrible poker. V is 3 betting light withoit positional awareness, and thus is doing so poorly. Unfortunately for you, the main person to benefit from this error is the players behind him. The reason this 3 bet is so weak is because not only should your range be strong, but there are many more players left to act behind him. Seat changing in position to him is going to be the best possible option of course.

3) actually building a range against a particular villan to 4 bet light with is difficult, but the best Axs and Kxs hands you are considering folding are comsidered the best hands to do it with, so AJs is probably a good hand to 4 bet light.

4) tighten up your PFR range. Especially if you aent comfortabls in this spot, playing a tighter range should help make your decisions easier.
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:35 AM   #17
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Given how this played out, 4betting is a bad idea. As soon as he got called, he shut down. You only want to 4 bet light if you think he's going to 3 bet light and barrel on the flop/turn when you have a hand that isn't going to have the resources to call much of the time.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:13 AM   #18
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
1) It is safe to assume at 1/2 or 1/3 that a player is not 3 betting light until there is reasonable evidence otherwise. as such, folding this hand is pretty standard without the read you ended up getting off the hand. AJs ought to be one of your weakest UTG hands.
Great point here (and points 2 to 4 also). Minor note tho: we do have relative position after the other person calls. Probably still a fold IMO but I can see the case for calling.

But unless you had an idea that villain could 3! so light here, you have to play this essentially like A7s and often fold the best hand post-flop when you have less than 2p or a flush draw.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:32 AM   #19
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

You'd have to pry AJs from my cold dead fingers in that spot op

Also realize that villain isnt necessarily clicking buttons, I would be 3betting alot of my continuing range this deep.

Also stop trying to force things. If i had to outline one thing i keep noticing in your hh its that you are wanting to force too many things to happen.

If you want to merge 4b AJs in a spot where you are getting 3b light and a 4bet will still get called by worse and you wont get 5bet bluffed, then fine. But dont start 4betting bc "he had 44!

Or, you can flat and play some poker with a hand that flops well vs someone with an insanely wide preflop 3b range.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:34 PM   #20
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

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Heh heh i was actually trying to figure out a way to ramdomize. Using the suits is a great idea. Pretty sure u should 4ball here 20% but 25% seems cool too
Yes,.. man

When you are on your way to your poker club decide what day will be. Like say: OK mama, today it'll be the day or day .. and so on. So, you incorporate into your range from EP hands like A5, T9, 87, of that suit in order to keep to minimum and at random the non premium hands. Else you'll be playing too many of non premium from a weak position. Make sure they are non-gap connector plus an A5. The last one A5 is especially good as a bluff hand plus has a lot of potential for NF, Str8 and the 5 connects even if a 6 comes down. The 56 is also a very good hand because makes the most str8 and very hard to be counterfeited by a bigger str8 in a raised pot. If the pot has been raised by you and you make a str8 most callers of your raise have big cards that have nothing to do with 2,3,4,7 but some of villains bay hold an A9 and hit TP + GS using one card his Ace to the wheel and if he makes it he will lose to your 56 (LOL)

If you feel comfortable you can even choose to have a black day like or .. or red day but don't play all suits because they are too many of them like 4x each suit x 3 or 4 connectors are 12-16 and that is way too much dead wood.

Last edited by outdonked; 07-26-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:07 PM   #21
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Today will be spade day! Thanks outdonked, those are good tips.

AJs is a winning hand. Everyone can make money with it. Look at the stats in your online databses. Its one of the few hands that makes a profit for all players

4betting here can be for fat value. Dont fold getting >3:1 ever imo

Wake me when u have A5ss
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:00 PM   #22
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Reason I folded was I didn't want to play a pot deep OOP vs 2 other players when all I had at risk was $15.

I feel like even if I hit a J I could of lost this pot if they played crazier.

I would of happily called in position.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:15 PM   #23
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

When you're this deep, their post flop tendencies are as if not more important than their pf tendencies when deciding to flat/fold/raise. You should be folding here very rarely though.
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:12 AM   #24
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

I can understand the general basic begginer advice "dont call 3bets with dominated hands" for amateurs/noobs. But thats because these people are so bad at poker that they will stack off one pair post flop too frequently, so folding pre eliminates that possibility.

I think if you have even the slightest clue about poker you should be fist pump calling here and just look to make some nutted hands to stack the other players. Unless you have absoulutely no discipline/ability to get away from top pair postflop or dont wish to learn how to play more complex postflop spots then fold.

But doing so only handicaps your hourly, and boy does thst make for some boring ass poker.

Btw, the fact that we are deep makes this even more of a call. If these were some shallow 30-40bb stacks, id just muck AJs to a 3bet.

Since we are deep, we can take a flop. Use our reads on both villians to gauge the strength of their hand based on their action.

For example, you take the flop 3 ways:
JT3r $155
checks to 3better who cbets HUGE for $150. Youve been watching him and you know this means Overpair minimum. Cool, ez fold.

Or, say he bets small, $70. All right,call and see a turn, especially if we have backdoor diamonds. Maybe he starts checking back ott and we know our hand is good and we can go for river value. Or, he barrels turn again, ok we can evaluate and perhaps fold then.

Whats everybody's obsession with being nits pre and folding so we dont get put in a tough spot? There aint no tough spots at llsnl unless these villiaims are psycho maniacs who bomb away postflop and stack off wide. But ask yourself, do most villians play like that at 1-3 or 2-5? Nah, they are passive and generally super face up.

Last edited by HappyLuckBox; 07-27-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:40 PM   #25
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Re: Dealing with light 3better deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
I can understand the general basic begginer advice "dont call 3bets with dominated hands" for amateurs/noobs. But thats because these people are so bad at poker that they will stack off one pair post flop too frequently, so folding pre eliminates that possibility.

I think if you have even the slightest clue about poker you should be fist pump calling here and just look to make some nutted hands to stack the other players. Unless you have absoulutely no discipline/ability to get away from top pair postflop or dont wish to learn how to play more complex postflop spots then fold.

But doing so only handicaps your hourly, and boy does thst make for some boring ass poker.

Btw, the fact that we are deep makes this even more of a call. If these were some shallow 30-40bb stacks, id just muck AJs to a 3bet.

Since we are deep, we can take a flop. Use our reads on both villians to gauge the strength of their hand based on their action.

For example, you take the flop 3 ways:
JT3r $155
checks to 3better who cbets HUGE for $150. Youve been watching him and you know this means Overpair minimum. Cool, ez fold.

Or, say he bets small, $70. All right,call and see a turn, especially if we have backdoor diamonds. Maybe he starts checking back ott and we know our hand is good and we can go for river value. Or, he barrels turn again, ok we can evaluate and perhaps fold then.

Whats everybody's obsession with being nits pre and folding so we dont get put in a tough spot? There aint no tough spots at llsnl unless these villiaims are psycho maniacs who bomb away postflop and stack off wide. But ask yourself, do most villians play like that at 1-3 or 2-5? Nah, they are passive and generally super face up.
ya - this is true. Bad fold pre lol
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