2/3 NLHE
UTG $500 (competent active reg) opens to 13
Hero MP $500 calls with 88
CO $400 (excitable, friendly, young inexperienced Asian fish) 3 bets to 40.
SB $350 (middle aged Asian station fish) calls.
UTG folds
Hero calls.
CO snap shoves All-in and gets told the error of his ways and pulls his chips back.

Flop ($145) K82r....SB checks, hero checks, CO checks.
Turn ($145) A...SB checks, hero bets 100, CO snap calls, SB folds.
River ($345) Q (no flush). CO has $260. Hero shoves (covers CO).

Thoughts?

I play the hand the exact same way but wouldn't be surprised for CO to have QQ, think a fish here bets flop w AA / KK. To me AQ seems the most likely hand V calls river here with.

So CO shoved before the flop out of turn after action was complete? Probably binding on flop. It that case, I call. As played out, I'm leaning towards a river fold.

Who folds river? I shoved the river

As stated, in most rooms his shove is binding if sb and you check flop

Getting meh setmining odds preflop to the 3bet, although if the fish are truly horrible and have a very narrow 3bet range that ain't folding then it's *maybe* profitable.

We can afford to let the flop check thru on the dry board and tiny SPR.

One of the problems with preflop is that there will be lots of boards, like this one, that by the turn he either (a) destroys us or (b) has a hand that is unlikely to stack off. I'm not even sure I bet it if the 3bettor's range is face up, but if I do I bet smaller to allow QQ- to manage a call.

Ditto for river, although I guess it really depends on how inexperienced this guy is. I mean, is ATs the nuts for this guy preflop? Is JJ the nuts postflop even with 3 overcards? This sorta lol stuff might apply in my lol annual family reunion poker tourneys; but it never applies in my reg filled casino game.

GfoldpreflopG

Does anyone besides me think that AA KK AK are the most likely hands on the flop?

If he doesn't cbet QQ on a K82r flop, he's probably not calling it after an A hits on the turn. L

you had less than a 2/3rds psb left. everything looks fine. If it's a cooler it's a cooler.

I dont know that attempting to raise yourself pf in error is the same as: shoving flop out of turn before it is dealt. I mean it technically can be, but i would hate to chase off fish with such a ruling if they didnt know what they were doing.

I dont think i shove river. If CO really did this by accident and knows how to play, he should show up with a bigger set if called... If he called you with a losing hand, LOCK THE DOORS (or peg him as angle shooter if he showed up winning with a never shove hand).

he checked the flop, so I would just play it out. I used to play with a guy with tourette's syndrome who used to randomly announce he's all in all the time. They gave him a special all in button just for him.

I think the play is fine. V is inexperienced, so we can't really tell whether he's shoving pre with the nuts or with something that he only thinks is the nuts.

During the hand, similar fog applies. He could be slow-playing, he could be mubsy, he could have not much.

OTR, V is pretty likely to find a bet with QQ+ and I don't think we can fold. While I'd set his bluff range to pretty much zero, he might well overplay his hand. OTOH, we can't really count on that. The uncertainty means we don't want to x/f; it also means we don't want to induce. I think we should shove ourselves to let V make a calling error with something we beat. That is the error most beginning players are prone to.

I'd check the turn again. Were you bet folding?

OK Thanks all, appreciate the analysis. I was keen to see what people thought before I revealed something that I guess could be seen as pretty unethical but it's the first time I've experienced it in 10 years of live play and I would never knowingly cheat though did I here?

What happened was this. Pre flop after V raised to 40 I looked over to check his stack size and as I did he peeled his cards really high and unknowingly exposed them to me. He had AKo. Action was was quickly back on me and I figured I'd typically call (sometimes fold) in this spot so called. In hindsight I could have announced pre flop that I'd seen his cards (not sure how that would have played out) but didn't think of it at the time. I discussed the hand with a couple of regs just after and they didn't have a problem with it.

At the risk of being results oriented I justified it to myself that the hand would have played itself anyway but when I think about it more I was wondering if I would have taken the same line if I wasn't superusing. Pretty sure I might have check-called turn and possibly check-folded river depending on turn, river bet sizing.

As played when he snap called the river I just confidently rolled over my hand when I can imagine in reality I would have been thinking 'oh fk' when he called.

Am I bad?


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I think I'd probably warn him preflop like "I think I may have accidentally saw your hand, you should do a better job protecting your cards" and then I would have no problem playing for his stack postflop.

GcluelessethicsnoobG

The non scumbag move is to announce that you saw his cards and to call a floor as to what proceeds next.

Also, how you could know he had AK and not check that turn blows my mind.

I'm curious what the actual rules are regarding this.

If it had gotten heads up, and I was on my A game, I think I'd actually tell him I'd seen his hand and offer to just check it down. That has its own issues, of course. Not suggesting that's the Right Thing To Do, just how I'd handle it.

The main problem in the hand AP is that we have information not available to the third player. I've gotten very good at immediately saying something if a card is flashed during the deal in order to avoid exactly that situation, but here I wouldn't have figured out what to do before the other player called and we were 3-way. Once that happens, there's really no good way out.

BTW, ignoring any ethical quandaries, I think you should have jammed pre. Let's say you flop a set+ 12% and win $400 when you do (every time). You lose $27 the other 88%. EV for set mining is about $25. SB's presence increases that some, of course.

EV for gii with AK is 57% * 440 - 43% * 377 = 14% * 400 = $89.

It seems unlikely SB has a hand he wants to gii with, since he's seen a raise and RR in front of him and just called.

I'm ignoring a buncha things here, but you get my drift.

Honestly it's his own fault that he's not protecting his cards, it's happened to me on occasion when I can see their cards but, I haven't used it to my advantage I just told em that I can see and to be more careful. But, in this exact situation, when I'm dealt 88 and involved in the hand I'd have taken him for everything he's got too.

shove pre is beyond terrible when you know his hand and its one that he probably wont fold pre.

id bet flop or bet turn bigger. hes literally never folding any street.

as for the move when you see his cards, if its a home game or something and you play together alot id sometimes say something. if its a casino and some random jackass then its his fault for not protecting his cards.

Really? I was pretty confident at that stage he wasn't folding turn or river no matter what the runout.

I get your drift but by jamming pre I'm pretty much giving away a huge advantage since I don't need to flop a set to continue.

Given his pre flop eagerness to get it in I figured he was just going to jam the flop when checked to.

It's pretty immaterial really...he was always stacking off. It's funny though, he was analysing the hand with the table for a solid hour after, trying to figure out how he could have gotten away .

General consensus - standard cooler.

This analysis seems wrong. We don't need to set mine once we see V's hand. We can just jam every time the flop doesn't show an A or a K and win more that way, since we avoid getting stacked when V outflops us and usually deny him the ability to see turn and river, which he does get to see if we shove pre. Also, 14% of 400 is $56.

It would be interesting to see what this would have resulted in. I imagine he'd still be pretty keen to see a flop having put $40 in with AK and then the hand would have become a huge levelling play.

I always tell someone when they are exposing their hands, specifically because ive been told to do so by the forum, but ive been met with pretty negative reactions from most people.

If i saw a hand in the middle of a live hand, i probably wouldnt tell them. I feel like it would be unfair to me, because i try to never speak during a hand unless i absolutely must, so being forced to speak because of their screwup seems kind of messed up. Its a messed up situation either way though.

I also receive negative reactions most of the time.

My personal rule is they get one warning. After that its fair game (forever). Unless its someone super elderly or handicapped, both of which Ive also experienced.

I also dont offer to check it down. If its multiway and i intend on vpiping, i say "i just saw seat 3's cards. Call floor". If its not multiway i say "i just saw your cards" and play accordingly.

This happens all the time.