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Could I have bombed the turn? Could I have bombed the turn?

06-26-2014 , 12:21 AM
$1/2, ridiculously deep stacked.
V1 $2800 BB
V2 $175 utg +1
Hero $1400 SB

V2 fairly competent young white guy, been opening a ton of pots. Not as good as he thinks he is. Opens for $15 which has been pretty standard from any position. Couple callers between V2 and hero with K9 suited. Gonna be a big pot, call. V1 call. Flop QJT two diamonds. Hero checks, V1 fires $75, V2 jams for $146, others fold. His shove doesn't complete the raise so V1 can't re-pop if I flat here. It didn't feel like V1 would fire the $75 with AK, plus the pf action didn't seem like it either (he is a solid regular, loves to raise) so hero flats the $146 and V1 obviously calls. Turn: 4s, brick. Here is where my question lies, what would be best from this point? Hero checks, V1 fires $200 and I call very quickly as I had decided no to raise. He seemed pretty surprised by the call, the river is a black ten, I check because I'd he had the types of hands I thought were likely he just filled up or still had me a AK, he ships it for over $2000 and I tank for about 30 secs and puke fold. V1 turns over JT to claim the main, V2 mucks and hits the ATM. Thoughts?
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 12:58 AM
Good fold. Raising at any point here seems spewy as it will be tough to get called by worse. Dont include results in your post. If you want help on the turn just detail the hand until then and leave out the river.

First I probably fold pre. K9s may seem like a good call deep but its going to make a bunch of non nut hands that are going to be 2nd best when the big money goes in. I want to call with position and if the other deep stacks are awful players.

Bombing the turn likely would have won you the pot, but given the crazy stack depth its going to be hard for him to call with anything other than AK. Its best to just check call it down.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 01:06 AM
Your preflop call is terrible.

Don't "call very quickly", basically ever.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
Good fold. Raising at any point here seems spewy as it will be tough to get called by worse. Dont include results in your post. If you want help on the turn just detail the hand until then and leave out the river.

First I probably fold pre. K9s may seem like a good call deep but its going to make a bunch of non nut hands that are going to be 2nd best when the big money goes in. I want to call with position and if the other deep stacks are awful players.

Bombing the turn likely would have won you the pot, but given the crazy stack depth its going to be hard for him to call with anything other than AK. Its best to just check call it down.
Agree with Mark L about the "don't call real fast" thing too.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 08:07 AM
K9 is one of the worst hands to call a raise pre flop with.

Becuase on this flop, you're going broke to AK every time.
And this is about the best flop that you can hope for.

Just fold it pre.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 09:20 AM
Playing K9 ridiculously deep is a big leak. Like drain the color from your face when your roll slides to the other side of the table leak.

The result of the hand is a perfect example why. You couldn't commit because K9 never makes the nut straight or flush.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 09:25 AM
"Gonna be a big pot" isn't a good reason to get involved with K9, especially OOP. Fold Pre.

However I think I strong raise on the Turn would've been better. Good River fold as played.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 09:42 AM
This is a definite fold pre-flop. It would be even super-deep, but the original raiser is not deep at all. Calling is just lighting money on fire - even if you stack V2 every time you flop two pair or better you can't make up for all the money you're throwing away when you check-fold after whiffing or make a second-best hand and lose even more.

V1 is usually going to have two pair on the flop (sometimes a set or smaller straight), and since V2 could easily have AK (and if so, you can only make money from V1 and don't want him to fold two pair), flatting makes sense. It looks like you have a big draw/pair+draw hand which should encourage V1 to bet the turn.

On the turn you should check-shove. Your goal is to get stacks in. Check-calling the turn (especially considering the relatively small bet) makes it difficult to get stacks in. If a diamond comes V1 will usually check behind on the river, and he may do so even on a blank since your range will be mostly missed draws and slowplayed straights.

You could check-raise smaller also; but check-shoving isn't that much of an overbet, and I like charging the max in this spot.

If you don't want to check-raise you should lead for at least 400 to set up a river shove and prevent V1 from drawing for cheap.

As played folding on the river is correct. I would consider calling a smaller bet as villain could have 98 or maybe even QJ, but it would be a tough decision.
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06-26-2014 , 11:20 AM
The thing with check shoving the turn is that it turns our hand face up against a monster stack. He has to be bad enough to call with 2 pair to make this a good shove. Otherwise there is just not much a shove gets value from. Maybe we can get value from 89/QQ, but when stacks get this deep stacking off with less than the nuts is pretty rare. Thats why I would rather play K9s 250bb deep than 800bb deep. Much easier to get value form mild deep stacks, not super deep when you want the supreme nuts before stacking off, which K9 will rarely make.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 12:09 PM
check and always call
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-26-2014 , 05:03 PM
Thanks for the input, I realized as soon as I saw the flop that calling pre was a bad idea. I seem to get my self in these situations way too often, especially when I'm up big. I can't Tell you how many times I've run $300 up to $1000 only to leave with 4 or 5 because I start feeling invincible and splash around in bloated pots oop with marginal/speculative hands.
Could I have bombed the turn? Quote
06-27-2014 , 12:15 PM
wow this game is stupid deep. Its a scary shove on the turn because I agree many times you won't get called by worse. In this case, you MIGHT have gotten called by J-10 on the turn if you jam. Just like you villain probably assumes you didn't flop the nuts be it A-k or K-9. Since you have a king and the way the action went pre i think your correct in assuming he doesn't have A-K. Obviously a good fold on the river, and the turn could go either way. If you think hes got 2p a set or worse then why raise?

My real question is why did we flat the flop? I am usually more worried about the FD coming in that two pair or a set boating up, esp if we have deduced that villain likely doesn't have AK. I like re popping the flop this deep.
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