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Old 10-11-2017, 02:08 PM   #1
Hoosier
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Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

I apologise for the silly mistake in recapping this hand in my earlier post. I have updated and the correct hand is as follows:

I've been reading 2+2 for the past year and have vastly improved my game through all the posts. This is my first post and I plan to become a regular poster and be a part of the community.

I would love feedback about a tricky hand that I played last night with a big pot.

1-2 NL, Hero is UTG+2, effective stack ($350)

V1 = UTG+1, effective stack ($250), tight passive player, raises only with big cards but overvalues QJ, KJ type of hands. Plays 2 hands every 30 min. Has played multiple times with hero, in my opinion perceives hero to have a wide range, also seen me over bet on turns with draws to get fold equty.

The hand:
UTG folds, V1 raises to $12(standard raise), Hero calls (109), everyone folds to cutoff who calls, BB calls.

Cutoff and BB are basic passive players, will call with draws without thinking too much about odds, overvalue TPGK.

Flop: K J4 4 players ($49)

V1 raises $25, everyone calls

Turn Q 4 players ($149)

V1 bets $30, action on me? My thought process was as follows:

With my straight to king, I was afraid of one of the flush draws getting to their draws on the river. I put the CO, BB on potential draws, 2 pairs.

The range for V1 was AA-99, AK - AJ, KQ, KJ, maybe A10, J10.

My straight was disguised so I decided to shoved all in $313, hoping to be called by one of the flush draws or 2 pairs and getting paid. My image at the table also made people perceive that I potentially had a draw than a made hand.

The only hand I lost to was A-10, and even though I put A10 within V1's range, I thought it is less likely especially with my 10 blocker. And on the rare occasion even if V1 has A10, I have an out to chop the pot.

I shove all in, CO folds, BB folds, V1 turns over his cards A10, thinks for 2 min and calls.

The river is irrelevant and I lose most of my stack.

How would people have played this differently? I'd love to get feedback about the biggest flaws in my thinking.

Thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:13 PM   #2
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Fold pre. Vs his stack, you don't have the implied odds to hit your suited connector. It's not set in stone, but you want ~ 25:1

Fold flop. You have a gutter and it's not even to the nut straight, and the Qc is not a clean out.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:22 PM   #3
Hoosier
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

I agree about what you are saying about post flop!

However pre flop, the implied odds would also have to include the potential callers behind me and make up for 25:1! What do you think?


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Old 10-11-2017, 02:24 PM   #4
Hoosier
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Also, what would you think about the shove on the turn considering A-10 happens to have a probability of less than 10% of the villains range


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Old 10-11-2017, 02:41 PM   #5
Rich Checkmaker
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier View Post
I agree about what you are saying about post flop!

However pre flop, the implied odds would also have to include the potential callers behind me and make up for 25:1! What do you think?


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fold pre!!! fold flop!!

what about someone potentially putting in a 3bet behind you? then you basically just burned up 6bb. if we extrapolate that out thats -600bb/100 for calling and folding here.

this is a very very bad call preflop. because of position. if we were on the button and the UTG made it 12 and 3 people called in front of us THEN we can call with T9s and only then you need multiple callers and you need to have position on them. just fold.

AP jam turn is good and when villain turns over the nuts and thinks 2mins before calling you should punch him in his face. thats how i would play that hand.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:44 PM   #6
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier View Post
I agree about what you are saying about post flop!

However pre flop, the implied odds would also have to include the potential callers behind me and make up for 25:1! What do you think?


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You'd have to be playing at a super passive table to assume you'll get nothing but callers after your call. Otherwise, you're vulnerable to being 3bet.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:05 PM   #7
dmccoy87
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

First off, the slow-roll would have pissed me off.

As far as the hand goes, T9s is a hand I prefer to fold or 3b! and in EP I would fold this. If you are at a very passive table, I guess it is ok to flat but only if you are very confident that the table won't 3b! behind you. I feel the vast majority of tables are not going to be passive enough for you to flat this in EP.

Flop you need to fold. You are only drawing to a Q, and the Qc is not really an out, especially if you get callers behind.

Turn is what it is, just a cooler. However, you should be trying to extract max value, not shoving to prevent a river making a flush. Shoving let's people fold out worse. I would have raised turn to $120-$150.

The most important thing to take away is you have misjudged Villain based off this hand. A tight passive villain isn't raising UTG wtih AT, nor is he cbetting with Ace high on this board very often. Villain is probably only cbetting this flop with the Ac, and even then a tight passive player should be checking. Based off this hand, villain is TAG.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:09 AM   #8
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Pre should probably be a fold but you can flat if the table is passive. Walking into a 3bet behind you is a disaster.

Flop is nowhere even close to a call. You are nowhere near closing the action, you only have a gutshot, the club out is dubious and none of your outs are to the nuts (see actual hand for why this matters).
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:22 AM   #9
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Flop is for sure a fold with no heart on board. Still should be a fold with a heart but there would at least be an argument.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:03 AM   #10
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Still light years away from a call with a heart.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:57 AM   #11
ROBUSTO8
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Probably pointless to post this but, yeah flop is a pretty obvious fold, you really really need to fold this. What is even your plan here? You're chasing a gut shot straight draw with a flush draw on the board and 4 players in the pot. I'm ok with calling pre though. As played I mean you hit the gin on the turn, can't do anything here but go broke. Still the shove was also unnecessary, just raise it up to the pot or a little over no need to go crazy with the second nuts, reel em' in slowly.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:18 AM   #12
Eholeing
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Fold pre
Fold flop
Jam turn is fine
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:58 AM   #13
Rich Checkmaker
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

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Originally Posted by ROBUSTO8 View Post
Probably pointless to post this but, yeah flop is a pretty obvious fold, you really really need to fold this. What is even your plan here? You're chasing a gut shot straight draw with a flush draw on the board and 4 players in the pot. I'm ok with calling pre though. As played I mean you hit the gin on the turn, can't do anything here but go broke. Still the shove was also unnecessary, just raise it up to the pot or a little over no need to go crazy with the second nuts, reel em' in slowly.
Uf!
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:30 AM   #14
GenghisKhan
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Preflop is a disaster to call against the UTG raise
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
22,766,793,984 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Th, 9h33.48% 7,421,583,032399,830,865
77+, ATx+, A5x, JTx+, AT+, KQ66.52% 14,945,380,087399,830,865


Postflop is horific
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: K, J, 4
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Th, 9h29.73% 172,84511,042
77+, ATx+, A5x, JTx+, AT+, KQ70.27% 416,11311,042

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-13-2017 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:37 PM   #15
pocketzeroes
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

Quote:
I shove all in, CO folds, BB folds, V1 turns over his cards A10, thinks for 2 min and calls
Huh? He tank called with the nuts with his cards showing?? Are you sure you got the HH right?
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:10 PM   #16
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Re: Correction: how to play this hand correctly? Flow in my thinking?

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Hard to pick the biggest flaws since there are so many. Forced to choose, I would say calling pf was the biggest by a fair margin.

The first step is to figure out what are the odds of hitting 2 pair or better pf with your hand. At 1/2 tables, people will call with lots of hands once someone else calls. Your chances in a MW pot in MP to "outplay" everyone is near zero. I'm going to guess that you have no idea up to this point what the number is.

You are 20:1 against.

Keep in mind that with a small pp, you are 7.5:1 against. The villain has a stack of $250, so that is the effective stack. Your extra $100 doesn't matter. He made a $12 bet. That means at best you're barely getting odds if he stacks off every time you hit. Given his range, he's going to miss a fair portion of the time and won't bet every hand. In addition, he's likely to avoid over playing TP with lots of people in the hand.

Therefore, this is a fold. If you felt like you had to play it, it would be better to 3bet it rather than call.

A reason this is the bigger mistake than the call with a gutshot draw and the shove with the straight is that you could avoided both of them if you had just folded. As a player just starting the serious portion of your poker journey, you want to avoid getting yourself in tricky situations which are going to lead to additional bad decision. Make your decisions for now simple.
Changed hand, but no need to change the analysis.
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