Straddle is on. 4 limpers call and I make it $60. I get two callers. V1 and V2 are both passive and usually don't raise. they both tend to check/call when they have top pair and usually bet out their really strong hands (trips on the flop). I've played with them a lot.

($210) - flop is KJJ rainbow. both check to me and i bet $140 and both call. V1 says "check blind" for the turn. he has never done this before...ever... v2 follows suit and says "check blind"

($630) - turn is a 5. I bet $210 and both call.

($1,260) - river is a 3. V1 suddenly leads out $500. V2 auto mucks without thinking. Hero?

What part of the hand should I have done differently/did incorrectly? Please help/please comment

I'd X the flop most of the time, maybe bet $80ish at a smaller freq.
When you bet 2/3pot the target is a KQ/KT/QT sort of range. Might be more optimal to go smaller, keep your range and their calling range wider. They also have more JX hands than you do.

X turn, fold river as played. Loose passive comes alive for a big round bet amount usually means AA is behind.

yeah, I'm checking back turn here.

as played fold river against passive villains

yeah this.

far far less otf too.

Can y'all elaborate on why checking the turn behind against passive villains?


HU I get it, but in a 3-way pot, both villains can have Kx/QT which isn't raising.

Just bet 2/3 pot and got called in 2 spots, so betting turn is far less appealing against any opponent type.

Can't speak for them, but when passive Vs start doing out of character BS like checking in the dark on KJJ, I'm just trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. Maybe I'm mubsy, I dunno. I don't think Aces up is going to be good.

Still calling something like 300 on river, assuming a pot of 540 or so, after 2 calls of a 110 cbet, and checking turn. Probably a leak.

Not a leak whatsoever.

I play exactly the same as you did, and call river, less than half of the pot, would be hoping he had some kind of K that he’s played badly, if he bet $800/$900 I would be folding

Agree w/ check flop, will also buff our checking flop range which I think tends to be way too weak for most players. On top of that, if we're ahead it's impossible for anyone to have more than 4 outs against us (the only possible open ender gets coolered on an A) so we don't need a lot of protection either. We unblock the K tho so still def go for 2 streets of value, it'll often look like calling a bet on the turn and betting when checked to on the river.

As played in the moment I prob convince myself the dude has a terribly played KQ and make a bad call but I just really don't think we'll see him show up without a jack very often at all judging by your reads. This lead screams "I don't want you to check back and miss a street of value."

yeah, a passive player never leads a blank river for 100bb for value in a 3 way pot with KQ on KJJxx when every street has been bet & called

this is either a jack, a boat or a bluff

I don't think the flop is ever a check, at least it wouldn't be part of my strategy when thinking about my range(s).

Yeah I don't really disagree tbh, I think there's merit to both and in practice I almost certainly mix.

And he's almost never bluffing into two players on a blank river. I just have a bad habit of talking myself into a call when I'm getting good pot odds.

Sure very occasionally he may show up with like like QT, but we we are never good anywhere near enough to justify a call here.

Let me ask, what was your plan on the river if checked to you?

Check back?
Bet 1/4 pot?
Bet 1/3pot?
Bet 2/3 pot?

I hope we can agree the latter option would be an overplay, given how the hand has played out.

DUCY if you’re going to bet turn for 1/3 and bet river for < 1/3, it would have been more advantageous for you to instead check turn, and then go for 3/4 to PSB on river if checked to? Same amount of overall money goes in, but you get to pot control/induce bluffs.

I think the main theme of this hand and the KQo hand is that you need to be more cognizant of pot control in your strat.

What to do on the river here is besides the point. Turn should have been a check given the multi-way scenario.

If both checked back to me, I would've bet 2/3 the pot to extract value from KQ/KT. Against passive opponents that historically never get tricky/always play the same way, is it negative EV to bet all 3 streets to extract as much value as possible?

I wouldn't have done this with any unknown/TAG/LAG, but both were passive and I mistakenly put them on both on Kx/QT, so I honestly thought I was golden on the turn because I thought either of them would've raised flop if either had a J.

It's just that I wait so long for my AA that I get so greedy and don't even think about pot control and I was already salivating on how much I will eventually win once I bet the turn. But I agree that all of you are correct, so it's something I need to fix regarding pot control and checking turn once both call.

I called, V1 had JJ for quads. V2 had QT (that's what he said and I believed him).

Thank you everyone for your comments/input!!!

Is it ever Positive EV to try and bet out all 3 streets against passive/calling station V's to get them to call their whole stack with top pair without any scary boards (draws/paired board, etc...)?

If your opponent(s) is bad enough. Limp/call, call/overcalling 3 times as a stackoff on KJJ but neither can beat AA is unicorn stuff.

Sometimes. Don't think in EV terms at all, just worry about hands and ranges and how everything jives together.

Strip this thinking entirely from any process. It's a nice start, but one of many nice starts that you'll have here. There is no entitlement because you got dealt AA, that's an elderly fish mentality.

If you’re confident in your reads, it might be okay to size up a bit more on the river if checked too, though I’d still favor a smaller bet. Given reads, I don’t think your river call was a mistake either. You just got pretty unlucky that one of the opponents hit an unlikely monster. Personally, I take a more cautious, low variance approach in these multi-way spots, since any of these players might be scared that you or the other player can a have a jack…for that reason, I think it’s pretty unlikely that you get three streets from anything worse than AK (which you double block, so not many combos there). Like if first to act faces a big bet with another player behind, idk if he even can call with AK there. You beat AK, but they can still have KJ or quads, so big river bet is a bit thin IMO.

Literally never checking this flop. Bet 1/3 pot. Turn is a check for me. River is close but I'd lean towards puke folding vs passive villians. The call turn/lead river line is just so often nutted vs this opponent type. He could have AK but I think it's mostly just trips/fhs/quads

Stinks like JTo, i fold river but hate it. I dont tend to check back turn, but given the action its something i think can be good here.