This is a hand from a reg-infested 2/5 game. It's usually pretty action-packed but tonight is an exception and the table is playing fairly tight. Everyone at the table knows me.

Main V1 is a young white kid. He's very tight preflop but will occasionally stack off light post-flop. V2 is a TAG reg I'm effective stack with $450.

V2 limps in UTG+2, V1 raises to $20 in HJ, I call from SB with JhTh. V2 calls behind.

Any merit to raising here? This seems a bit too good to fold but I also want to invite V2 to play so I think a flat is standard.

Flop ($60): Qh8h4s

I check, V2 checks (looks disinterested), V1 bets $35.

Hero?

I x/r to $100 since I have a very strong draw and V1 doesn't have that many monster hands here. Anyone just call here?

V shoves over the top.

Hero?

I have no problem with your line; I may x/r slightly larger

this is just a math problem after V shoves, he should have AQ or better here

If V1 stacks off light post, have to call now and bink

Xr sizing feels awkward, but you are pot commited now, snap it off.

its an unfortunate call, you only need 38% and your likely getting that. higher flush draws are depressing to see and will sometmes pop up here as well,

against an overpair your getting 48%
against a set your at 35%
against a higher flush draw your 30%
against a lower flush draw your around 74%

this amounts to a call but its not particularly profitable. crappy spot

Just to confirm, it was V1 who shoved right?

I can see the argument for 3betting pre but call is fine. As played I like your check raise, I might go slightly larger but it’s not too small.

As played you should sigh, flick a one dollar chip in and yell “one time!!!” and then spike a 9c on the river. It’s all about visualization.

Once he shoves, I think it's an obvious call against his range (plenty of overpairs/AQ). Probably only one combo of higher FD (AK).

Does anyone choose to x/c instead of x/r here? Considering his propensity to stack off light, the IO might be great (especially for the straight).

What sizing would you choose?

Very very std fold pre, stop finding reasons to put in money OOP w/ J high in the worst possible position.

ap flop raise std, stack off ap

is it really that std of a fold pre? I think if we are playing 500 eff stack or more then it is a pretty std call with IO

No way is this a standard fold pre. Almost no good player is folding JTs in this situation. Upswing has it as a call even against a UTG open.

Also the "J high" nonsense is just trolling. Do you also advocate folding AK here since it's just "A high?" It's not like I'm playing J3s from the SB.

Maybe you don't play JTs here, but *calling* is the standard play not the other way around.

Lulz. This is the beauty of live poker and why it will never die. We got regs who will “defend” their SB vs a nit iso raise from UTG. Many good players fold JTs here; you don’t represent all good regs. Doug Polk would definitely not advocate flatting JTs here, he would say to 3b or fold here for sure. And he sure as hell wouldnt advocate flatting vs a nit iso raise, 90bb deep effective. None of the writers would unless they’re terrible. In fact, I’m 100% sure most of the writers advocate 3b or folding most hands from the SB.

J10s and AK arent even the same thing, you know that. AK is a premium and is a top 5% hand and is a good money maker (assuming you play it properly), J10s isnt. Simple as that. If you’re comparing J10s and AK like they’re the same thing, then i dont know what to tell you. It’s a pretty ******ed analogy.

Lots of regs, even winning regs, can make bad plays (ie defending or flattng too wide). It doesnt make it less of a leak. Lots of good players overcbet flops (eg make very poor cbet selections with hands that are multiway). Does that make it “standard” or even good? No it doesn’t.

Of course, I won’t change your mind and you’ll keep flatting J10s here. I don’t particularly care since you already have your mind set on that it’s “standard.”

The fact that you have to even post this hand for a critique when it’s clear as day what to do postflop says something, no? Maybe you wont profit as much calling here as a “standard” as you thought you would.

We are 90bb deep eff. Oop vs two players and OOP to a nit who iso raised pre and has a strong range. Imo seems like a pretty leaky spot to call here.

Try using flopzilla and plug in respective ranges for other players, and see how “good” you flop and how often.

We cant really play IO hands 90bb deep imo. You could make a case here for 150bb deep if they are really bad and stack off too light post or even 120/100bb deep, but this shallow it’s a turbo muck.

From sb you want to be 3-betting more hands and mote linearly to mitigate positional disadvantage, and aggression just wins. Taking the passive route means we can never pick up the pot pre and end up OOP to 2 ot more players postflop. Some exceptions I can think of is PP/suited Ax which play great multiway. Suited broadways and SCs and hands like AJo/AQo play much better as a 3b or fold

You can argue all you want, or you can literally look it up yourself in Upswing: JTs is a call from the SB vs. a UTG open (which approximates the range of a LP open by a tight, positionally-aware villain). I just confirmed.

I never claimed AK and JTs are the same hand—I just said dismissing JTs as "J-high" with no regard for it's playability is ridiculous.

All it says is that I'm constantly looking for ways to improve my game. I did the standard play here but was simply curious if there are alternative ideas.

You can absolutely play IO hands 90bb deep. It's not like we're in a big 3-bet pot. I use a rule of 20x for IO-hands (PP would also fall in this category) and we're easily getting it here.

I'd definitely be playing 3-bet/fold with hands like AJo/AQo but JTs is absolutely a multiway hand.

Snap fold pre and it isn't even close. If Doug Polk told me to jump off a bridge I wouldn't do it. Calling nit raises from the SB is just suicide.

+1, what in the world is going on in this thread?

Post was standard, have to now call it off.

I see what your saying; i was just looking at the 15/25/35 rule; so SC"s we would look to make 25X20 which would be 500; so i think if this guy has a strong range here and will likely pay us off when we make our hand, and we are playing a stack greater than 500.(i know its only 100bb's deep) wouldn't that justify calling here pre-flop? or you still would rather 3b or fold?

Imagine saying very very standard fold pre or snap fold pre

I would take what Upswing says with a grain of salt. Ofc they’re amazing players, but they aren’t low stakes poker grinders. If youve seen Doug play live, he’s spewed quite a ton bc he’s so gto based and made glaringly bad bluffs against recs because he wanted to lol balance his say flop 3b range. He’s also made some very questionable calls vs recs. What works in their games doesnt always apply to low stakes games

And the charts can say whatever they say but I can guarantee you that if you personally asked one of the writers if you should flat from the SB with JTs vs a NIT iso raise, from the SB 90bb deep eff, they’d answer no in a heartbeat. They would most definitely say 3b or fold, mostly folding probably

Using those rules are pretty dangerous imo bc the games have evolved a lot today, and those “rule of thumbs” were created by players, whose strats are outdated a decent amount today, many years ago where the fish and regs were way worse than they are today (dont get me wrong poker isnt anywhere near dead).

When we flush up many people are going to pot control IP so we dont win much, and whenever we get overflushed we’re flushing out stack down the toilet (he should many higher FD combo here, PFR). He also has a lot of stronger Jx like KJs/AJ and we end up in RIO. Id much rather have 66-88 here.