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Old 08-27-2013, 11:17 AM   #201
gobbledygeek
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I'm real interested to see where you play, I know you won't reveal, but it seems very loose?

Which is great for you!

But for most including myself (Reno, NV) most of the games are tighter (1/2nl). So I think its harder to crush the game like this. Maybe a few times a month will I sit at a game to find an Asian lady blow her wad on pocket 5's.

Have you played outside your local casino to compare?

Do you think your winrate would be the same somewhere else?

I have always felt you really need a loose table at lower stakes to make any money, I have tried Friday nights, Sat, Sun, WED night ect.... there seems to be no pattern to when the gamblers come?
I've only played NL in a handful of other casino's, mostly local, and mostly just to collect a $1 chip for my collection; my hazy memory seems to recall the play quite similar to my game, but maybe I'm wrong, plus lol sample size. So no, I definitely don't have any useful experience at similar stakes at other locales. I really have no clue how my 1/3 NL game (i.e. the lowest NL game offered in my poker room) compares to other 1/3 NL / lowest level games being played around the world (and therefore no clue how applicable my winrate would be elsewhere).

I will say that perhaps I sometimes give off the impression that people are moving all-in preflop with 55 every other hand, etc. at my table. This obviously isn't the case. My average session length is ~7.4 hours. The table can change drastically back and forth over a 7+ hour session. Sometimes, it just takes a loose cannon or two to be added to the mix, and the the table suddenly becomes great. But replace those players with a few tight nitty okish regs, and the game becomes quite poor. Many of those hours within a 7+ hour session are spent at a mehish table, just sorta waiting for the good times, or for even the okish players to get impatient after being card dead and then imploding. Patience is a huge key at these tables, and waiting for your spots. Often my whole 7+ hour session profit will boil down to just a few hands against opponents who make that one horrific mistake each.

As for when gambloorers sit at the table, my experience so far has shown this is rather random (as my hourly rates broken down per day seem to suggest). Although I'm usually not playing after 9:30pm, so I'm not sure what happens late at night. I do know I've played in Friday night games that are absolutely horrible (invested with nitty okish decent regs) versus played in Tuesday late afternoon games that are absolute goldmines. You just have to patiently wait for your spots.

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Old 08-28-2013, 05:24 AM   #202
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

Question for GG:

When you said that you often/always shove the nuts otr, it makes sense that we want to value bet big and if V is willing to call a big value bet he will probably call a shove, this is similar to overshoving AA pf if someone with a tiny 3bet range 3bets us (what they're willing to call a small 4bet with, they're willing to call ai). But do people notice after a while that your river shoves are always the nuts?

And a similar point, when we are clearly ahead otr (whether or not it's with the nuts) a lot of times I find myself against a V who is a) bad b) not committed to any type of plan throughout the hand. And pretty often I'm in a spot where I've bet pf/otf/ott and all that's left is a PSB otr, and V will fold and show something like Q9 or K7, and be folding top pair. So my bet sizing would have worked if they were bad but committed (going to the death with 1 pair no kicker) but along the way they realize they're kicker is bad and can't call a "big" (in absolute terms, not portion of the pot necessarily) bet on the end. Do you still keep betting your PSBs against these guys, or do you go for lines of something like 20/30/40 against them because they're just incapable of calling it all off on the end without large absolute strength?
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:21 AM   #203
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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But do people notice after a while that your river shoves are always the nuts?
Lol, that's one of my biggest fears. But maybe the player pool is big enough overall, combined with my "infrequent" once-a-week play, that my opponents just haven't been able to arrive at that conclusion yet. It's actually one of my concerns about perhaps getting the wife's ok to play twice a week, where maybe people will pay just that much more attention to me with the increased visibility, and maybe I won't get the action they've been giving me.

But having said that, maybe the opponents are just plain bad. Last session out, I've put in 8+ hours and won a couple of huge pots and I'm sitting with a huge stack. Two guys I've played with a fair bit (but not a whole lot) are sitting talking at the other end of the table. I hear one guy tell the other, "I only get my chips in with the nuts against gg". Within 15 minutes, I have the rest of his shortstack all-in preflop, with my AK dominating his KJo. He can't help himself. He's a gambloorer / maniac, he didn't come here to fold KJo preflop with a shortstack. And he didn't come here to fold his nut flush draw on the turn either. And if he gets to the river, he didn't come here to fold his two pair even though I obviously have a straight.


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Do you still keep betting your PSBs against these guys, or do you go for lines of something like 20/30/40 against them because they're just incapable of calling it all off on the end without large absolute strength?
One of my biggest complaints about HOC in the easy games section is how he flop ~nuttish hands and then doesn't end up playing for stacks against poor players by basically nickel and diming them and only getting a portion of their stack. Are we going to get their stack every time we pot/pot/shove? No. But we're going to get it enough of the time to make it >>>>>>>> nickel and diming every time for only a little bit of their stack. Give your opponents the opportunity to make a massive mistake against you; sometimes they won't, but often they'll "surprise" you and will. If we have a nuttish hand, the goal should always be to play for stacks, and our bet sizing has to reflect that.

Gnotreally"surprised"G
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:12 PM   #204
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
But having said that, maybe the opponents are just plain bad. Last session out, I've put in 8+ hours and won a couple of huge pots and I'm sitting with a huge stack. Two guys I've played with a fair bit (but not a whole lot) are sitting talking at the other end of the table. I hear one guy tell the other, "I only get my chips in with the nuts against gg". Within 15 minutes, I have the rest of his shortstack all-in preflop, with my AK dominating his KJo. He can't help himself.
I wish the people who come on this forum and talk about how nut peddling is too exploitable, and we need to be balanced all the time, would just always remember this story and not out-think themselves.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #205
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

lol @ the $1 chip collection; I thought I was the only one who did that. My father was big on collecting stamps, and I always saw my chip collection as a poker nerd's version of his habit. I had a job for a while that caused me to travel a great deal, so I'm at 100+ right now and can boast a range that includes (by order of visit) the northeastern/southeastern US, LV, LA, Asia, Australia, and Europe...although I lost about 15 when some hoodlums in Milan broke my passenger seat window to steal a bag of sentimentally valuable property.

In Vegas, I do think that constantly playing against tourists allows me to change my approach slightly. Since there are only a handful of regs in my games, I don't have to worry too much about how making a certain play will create a carryover effect for my image in a future session. I have to focus entirely on what my actions in the last few hours suggest to the table. If I played against the same opponents on a weekly basis I would have to worry about that being exploited (which is what you seem to be saying in regard to your river value bets). So I guess I'm pretty lucky in that regard.

A funny thing I noticed when playing in the south was the table dynamic created simply by the fact that I looked pretty young and spoke with a northeastern accent. I can remember betting the flop a few hands in a row and another player saying, "Well, there's that Yankee aggression again." Sometimes it allowed me to extract a bit more value (esp OTR) than I might have if I seemed more local, esp against slightly older men who "don't want to get pushed around" by a Yankee.
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Old 08-28-2013, 12:55 PM   #206
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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lol @ the $1 chip collection; I thought I was the only one who did that. so I'm at 100+ right now and can boast a range that includes (by order of visit) the northeastern/southeastern US, LV, LA, Asia, Australia, and Europe
Nice!

I wish I had of thought of this idea when I was first started going to casinos to play poker. I had some business trips to Vegas in the late 90's / early 00's where I would play 7 card stud (I was a total fish noob), and then even on later trips when I started playing Limit Hold'em. So a lotta rooms I've been where I failed to get a chip.

GIthinkI'monlyat15chips,ratherlamereally,butneatly framedonmymanroomwallG
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:04 PM   #207
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

Just read, thanks for posting. I definitely think your style is a winning one at 1/2-1/3. I have played a very similar style and won consistently. Not only can you win, but it is a low stress style, much less swings. Like you said there are more than one way to win at poker.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:19 PM   #208
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
I wish the people who come on this forum and talk about how nut peddling is too exploitable, and we need to be balanced all the time, would just always remember this story and not out-think themselves.
its not that ppl think nut peddling is to exploitable. The issue is your not making as much as you should be because your passing up on other profitable spots and i don't mean by 3 barreling air. My Post not related to Op just to your comment.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:17 PM   #209
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This sounds like THE recipe for beating my hometown game at the Hardrock Tampa. However, as I travel around the country I find that often the smaller Midwestern cities are a bit tougher. (Mixing it up ala HOC works well)

Would you be willing to share where you play?


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Old 08-30-2013, 03:29 AM   #210
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Ya, the possible run good part can't be overemphasized. And even based on my arbitrary 200 hour breakdowns it's pretty clear I've had normal running spots and huge run good spots (with no real run bad spots). My recent 17-1 run good has really blown my winrate out of proportion, so I really have no confidence in where it is. As far as absolutes, I'm pretty positive I'm a winner in the game I'm playing; beyond that, meh.

Another thing to consider is that there probably is more than one way to win at this game. Overall I take a rather passive approach, which I think might give me a bit of a nut peddler image, which means I probably do have to deleverage the turn a lot to get paid off (and probably induce a decent amount of bluffs). But if you play a much more aggro game and have that image, methinks your later street game will be much different than mine.

I also don't want to be that guy who's like "Hey, I scored 5 goals in the NHL, here's how you go about being a professional hockey player". I know there's much better winrates with far better levels of confidence on here than mine. But it is what it is, and I think it's a good starting point for the level of player that this forum is for and for the stakes they play (i.e. beginners / low levels).

GcluelessNLnoobG
Wow; people win by playing good ranges?
Nice work GG.
Nut peddling works really well when you game select to tables full of morons that want to pay you off. Game selection FTW.


And your turn river play and comfort is a function of your low SPR playing style. You basically are only playing turn/river situations when you're nut-peddling limped hands with high SPR (straight/big flush draws)--which are easy to think through. Its also why you don't like messing with decent/tricky lags 300bb deep. If you want to move up in live stakes, eventually you'll need to work on that part of your game. But you probably don't need to care right now--or ever. You're 1/3 wrt is def higher than my 1/3 wrt; and though my game ports up, I could prob use to play a more ABC poker game when playing 1/2 & 1/3.

Baller thread.
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Old 08-30-2013, 03:31 AM   #211
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Ya, the possible run good part can't be overemphasized. And even based on my arbitrary 200 hour breakdowns it's pretty clear I've had normal running spots and huge run good spots (with no real run bad spots). My recent 17-1 run good has really blown my winrate out of proportion, so I really have no confidence in where it is. As far as absolutes, I'm pretty positive I'm a winner in the game I'm playing; beyond that, meh.
How do you think you'd play now if you started your first 5K hands in the midst of some horrendous run bad?
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:27 AM   #212
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Great thread, thank you. Not sure if its been asked yet, but do you ever drink alcohol at the table. Even if its 1 or 2 to calm the nerves?

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Old 08-30-2013, 10:44 AM   #213
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by Maskk View Post
Wow; people win by playing good ranges?
Nice work GG.
Nut peddling works really well when you game select to tables full of morons that want to pay you off. Game selection FTW.


And your turn river play and comfort is a function of your low SPR playing style. You basically are only playing turn/river situations when you're nut-peddling limped hands with high SPR (straight/big flush draws)--which are easy to think through. Its also why you don't like messing with decent/tricky lags 300bb deep. If you want to move up in live stakes, eventually you'll need to work on that part of your game. But you probably don't need to care right now--or ever. You're 1/3 wrt is def higher than my 1/3 wrt; and though my game ports up, I could prob use to play a more ABC poker game when playing 1/2 & 1/3.

Baller thread.
I agree with your sentiments. gobbledygeek is going to need to step up his game if he wants to win.

But in general, if his goal is simply to grind out 1/3, he seems to have a winning formula, though exploitable. I don't think he's seen any run bad yet which is awesome for him, but then again it might do him some good to experience how that is as well. (in terms of experience, I mean)
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:45 AM   #214
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Great thread, thank you. Not sure if its been asked yet, but do you ever drink alcohol at the table. Even if its 1 or 2 to calm the nerves?

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this in general is a bad idea, as is any other substance that might influence/effect your judgment.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #215
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by donkeyfhish View Post
This sounds like THE recipe for beating my hometown game at the Hardrock Tampa. However, as I travel around the country I find that often the smaller Midwestern cities are a bit tougher. (Mixing it up ala HOC works well)

Would you be willing to share where you play?


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I play at the Hardrock Tampa.

GI'mtheguywiththehatandglasses,comeupandsay"hi"!G
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:20 AM   #216
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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How do you think you'd play now if you started your first 5K hands in the midst of some horrendous run bad?
I probably woulda went back to playing 2/4 Limit where at least I could ~breakeven and then try to encourage a 4/8 (+ kill) game to get going. (ha, only half joking)

5K hands is only ~170 hours, so I guess I woulda chalked it up to NL inexperience and tried to persevere. I mean, my initial 131 hours at NL kinda sucked (see my lame 1/2 NL results, which are just barely better than my 2/4 Limit results). But, yeah, I probably wouldn't have known I was in the middle of a run bad and totally questioned how I was supposed to be able to win at this game, and I'm sure that would have screwed with my head and would have perhaps altered my method of trying to beat it.

I think I have adjusted my style over the ~1200+ hours I've put in at 1/3 NL (becoming a lot more passive preflop, really trying to plan for stack off vs pot control on TP hands from the very start, etc.) and it *looks* like that has been reflected in the way my winrate has increased over the 200 hour segments. But obviously lol sample size; I mean, really, can I conclude anything reasonable over a 200 hour stretch? Probably not.

Grecommendsrunninggoodwhenbeginninganewgame,andthe ncontinuingtodosoG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 08-30-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:22 AM   #217
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Not sure if its been asked yet, but do you ever drink alcohol at the table. Even if its 1 or 2 to calm the nerves?
I don't drink alcohol in real life or at the poker tables.

GsquarestoneonthisforumbyacountrymileG
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:27 AM   #218
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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But in general, if his goal is simply to grind out 1/3, he seems to have a winning formula, though exploitable. I don't think he's seen any run bad yet which is awesome for him, but then again it might do him some good to experience how that is as well. (in terms of experience, I mean)
I think if the 2/5 NL game ever resurfaces on a regular basis in my room, I might want to take a shot at it. Would be an interesting test to see if the game is any different from the 1/3 NL game I'm currently in. Honestly, I'm not convinced it's any different (if anything, maybe even more looser/wilder and simply played by people with more gambool and more money to burn), but that's just a guess on my part.

I think it definitely would be a test for me to go thru a downswing at this point. As I say, I've never been on a 5 BI (500bb) downswing in my 1200+ hours so far, so everything is just always coming up roses. Would be interesting to see if I could stick to my guns when things go sour (which I'm assuming they eventually will). I'm guessing that will also decrease my enjoyment of the game quite a lot as well, but I'm not sure (a day out playing poker is better than most other days, win or lose?).

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:30 AM   #219
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I play at the Hardrock Tampa.

GI'mtheguywiththehatandglasses,comeupandsay"hi"!G
I'm sure I've seen you around/played with you then. I'm the red-headed kid that always wears an odd red beanie.

Also - I'm sure you enjoy playing with Sebastian ( old spanish looking guy with glasses and always has his red and black jacket ) as he is the def of what picking a good table can lead to.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:34 AM   #220
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I'm sure I've seen you around/played with you then. I'm the red-headed kid that always wears an odd red beanie.

Also - I'm sure you enjoy playing with Sebastian ( old spanish looking guy with glasses and always has his red and black jacket ) as he is the def of what picking a good table can lead to.
Sorry dude, I was only joking.

I actually almost played the Hardrock Tampa once. I was out on a business trip early last year to Orlando and was considering busing to it every night after the tradeshow in order to give me something to do in the evenings. Just figured the long bustrip / $$$ / super late evenings weren't going to be worth it.

GpartsunknownG
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:44 AM   #221
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Sorry dude, I was only joking.

I actually almost played the Hardrock Tampa once. I was out on a business trip early last year to Orlando and was considering busing to it every night after the tradeshow in order to give me something to do in the evenings. Just figured the long bustrip / $$$ / super late evenings weren't going to be worth it.

GpartsunknownG
Welp, I feel dumb. Lol, but after reading over your posts I realized when you were talking about 2/5 not running you must not be talking about HRT, as it runs like 24/7.

Gyoufooledthe****outtameG
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:54 AM   #222
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I agree with your sentiments. gobbledygeek is going to need to step up his game if he wants to win.

But in general, if his goal is simply to grind out 1/3, he seems to have a winning formula, though exploitable. I don't think he's seen any run bad yet which is awesome for him, but then again it might do him some good to experience how that is as well. (in terms of experience, I mean)
With what seems like impressive game selection, friendly manors, and a style the keeps him from being the obvious target, I'm guessing that at this time, 200 hours of runbad would see GG's wrt drop to maybe 5/hr, unless he jumps on a real horrorshow. I'm guessing his competition is so bad that he's good enough to win through it.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:57 AM   #223
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@ collecting $1 chips - me too

One guy has a PC&G dedicated to it:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-time-1284817/

^good read
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:58 AM   #224
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I play at the Hardrock Tampa.

GI'mtheguywiththehatandglasses,comeupandsay"hi"!G
Ahh, the other reason your wrt is so awesome. You're playing in the Florida turkeyshoot.

I've only heard of how juicy the game is down there; every guy I've played since they opened up NL has told me I need to go. Humping the smaller midwestern cities (as discussed in the thread) is a tougher hall.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:08 PM   #225
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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With what seems like impressive game selection, friendly manors, and a style the keeps him from being the obvious target, I'm guessing that at this time, 200 hours of runbad would see GG's wrt drop to maybe 5/hr, unless he jumps on a real horrorshow. I'm guessing his competition is so bad that he's good enough to win through it.
One thing I will say (and I think I have said this thru out my thread) is that I really don't have any confidence at all in my winrate due to a rather insane run over the past year+ worth of hours. I mean, even in my last 8 sessions I've booked wins of 739bbs, 497bbs and 483bbs (3 of my all-time best top 4 results); I mean, shortterm stuff like this really screws with your winrate.

GprettysureI'mawinnerinmygame,beyondthat,mehG
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