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Old 02-28-2013, 04:44 PM   #151
Ohlongjohnson
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

unlike most, who have the attention span of a goldfish apparently, i read it all (which only takes a few minutes, ill never understand the "tldr" people i guess).

great post, congrat on your achievement and great attitude. there is no such thing as a doomswitch so dont be afraid! you are just as likely to run good as you are to run bad. ~30k over 1000 hr is 10bb/hr at 1/3 nl which is a good but not unreasonable rate to be winning at without simply running good. i wouldnt be surprised if you sustain it.

i ama bit surprised by your postflop play. you seem to prescribe a quite passive play with a lot of pot control. it could just be the environment you play in is best suited for that, but i find that vbetting slightly thin on all streets is best live, checkin back rivers to bluffcatch or with showdown value ip. i would rather bet a turn and bluffcatch riv instead of check turn to induce them to call on river.

you say to not worry if they have a draw, but that is the best place to make money in live nlhe! the worse players call so miuch with weak draws that i think it best to extract value when u can

as for your talking about b/f with 1 psb left, i think you are committe with any be at that point, either c/f c/c c/ship or b/ship at that point. just decide if you are ahead, if his range will call or bet x amount, the choose a line and go with it.

i have had lots of situations where 1 psb is left on river, i bet 40-60% and they put the rest in and i just have tpgk so i call being pot committed and win because i have them outkicked or they had a missed draw and bluff while not understanding that i was pot committed etc.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:12 PM   #152
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

nice thread

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Old 02-28-2013, 05:15 PM   #153
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Very well written, sir.

I probably have a few mild disagreements with a few things in your style, but I think as an entire package they work well for you and your personality.

Great job. My 1,000 hour post won't be long...and will involve more swearing, boozing, and strippers.
will you break it up into groups of 8 or 16 bars?
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:47 PM   #154
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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it could just be the environment you play in is best suited for that
It could boil down to an environment thing.

I was thinking the other day how I would play against everyone in my normal poker room vs everyone at my annual family reunion game. My family reunion game is always a donkament, but man, if it was ever a cash game, I would slaughter them and it would be value town on every street baby. My family reunion opponents (god love'em, they're family) are horrible poker players. "QQ! Woot! Ace high board! Don't matter! I got QQ!". I could easily get 3 streets of value with an A here, my only fear would be perhaps bet/folding the best hand when they tarp me and raise me postflop cuz "Woot, QQ!". And not everyone knows that a flush beats a straight, nor exactly how cards are needed to make those. And don't even get me started on bet sizing. So yeah, against my family reunion crowd, bet/folding for value on every street, and really only running into trouble when I get called down by a set of twos because, you know, "I only have 22".

But I'm guessing my poker room is a lot like other poker rooms. There's very few GG-family-reunion types sitting around the table. These opponents are far from great; heck, they are far from good. But a lot of them are of the ilk where they'll see a turn with any pair and then they quit to a turn bet; but they'll pay off a river bet once it looks like we're FOS as we've bet river after checking the turn. And others are aggro enough to attempt to steal the pot here, unlike the total passives sitting back waiting to hit a hand ("Aggression is the key to poker!", of course totally misapplying this concept as they bluff a showdownable hand that is better suited as a bluffcather).

One of the problems I have with HOC is the weak games he describes don't exist in most normal poker rooms, imo, at least in the fashion he describes (which better describes my family reunion donkament). The players are bad, but they are bad in a different sort of way. When a player in my family reunion calls down 3 barrels with bottom pair, it's because, like, "I've got a pair and that's pretty good, and I was going for a full house or 3 of a kind". When a player in my room calls down 3 barrels, he's thinking on a different level of "I know my hand is crap, but I think you're aggro enough to barrel 3 streets with A high, and I don't think it really makes sense for you to bet the river after I've called the turn on this board". Same result, but much higher advanced thinking (misguided or not), which applies to other situations as well.

GimoG
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:09 PM   #155
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I bumped my "1000 hours of 2/4 limit" thread in the Small Stakes Forum (which I posted in 2007) and was shocked to find Jesse8888 as a poster in that thread. At the time, I think he was just some small stakes rec guy like me. Then he took a different path, quitting his lucrative but soul crushing day job to become a full time grinder. I still read his blog religiously (a mandatory read for anyone even considering going pro), and it's very interesting how lives can go. I took the solid-but-soul-crushing-job route (I never had any serious interest in doing any other route, I'm a fairly conservative guy) while keeping poker as merely a hobby. He did the other route, and I believe he's done quite well financially, although you wonder how he is doing mentally after reading the occasional blog post (sometimes he's up, sometimes he's down). I've always thought about what I would do if I lost this job tomorrow, and frankly, I might be tempted to take the exact same route as you (i.e. poker while figuring things out)

GdingdongG
I like the way you've alluded to this issue of "poker as-hobby or poker-as-job" consistently throughout your post. While it is one of those topics that dominates this forum, especially in the "Poker Goals & Challenges" thread, your analysis does offer a different perspective, especially as you have a sufficient sample size to support your conclusions about your results. Since you've structured your poker "hobby" so well in relation to your other life needs, I believe that, psychologically, your game is particularly strong, which, in conjunction with a solid LLSNL strategy, has the effect of making poker seem easy. But, of course, your level of discipline is perhaps much greater than most others sitting at the table, a fact that I'd suggest is underestimated by many.

Anyway, let's say, for instance, that you had to rely on poker as your major source of income, and were playing 30hrs+ a week rather than 10. How would your poker life change? Would you need to play 2/5 more often than not? And, importantly, would you need to develop a strategy that was more "balanced", both in terms of your preflop range and turn and river play? For, what strikes me about your strategy in general is that, while it's clearly successful in your poker room at 1/3, it's not so open to "adjustment" (apart from table selecting). I say this because the need to "adjust" becomes even more important when you are playing more hours, since other players in the room have greater opportunity to analyse your game style and exploit its predictable elements. I would be very interested to know whether you've been placed in many situations where some of the better regulars have placed sustained pressure on you (e.g. by 3betting light, floating to bluff turns and rivers, etc.) and whether you've responded in any other way apart from a table change Personally, if I was in your room, and I saw how you were raking in pots, with your game style, I would be making poker life difficult for you, almost as a default, and hoping that you would adjust, as a basic levelling strategy. Or are you just too nice a guy to allow this to happen?

All said and done, though, congratulations, on a "model" 1000hrs at 1/3. Enjoyed every word!

Last edited by DrTJO; 03-01-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:37 AM   #156
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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I would perhaps even consider turning down another free entry as it's just wasting time I could be using to play in the cash game.
I've been in this situation many times in online play--would you delay coming to the dinner table to protect a freeroll tournament stack worth $2? The correct solution is to accept the free entry and then go all-in even with an inferior hand--you'll either double up to a worthwhile chipstack or stop wasting your time.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:03 AM   #157
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
One of the problems I have with HOC is the weak games he describes don't exist in most normal poker rooms, imo, at least in the fashion he describes (which better describes my family reunion donkament). The players are bad, but they are bad in a different sort of way. When a player in my family reunion calls down 3 barrels with bottom pair, it's because, like, "I've got a pair and that's pretty good, and I was going for a full house or 3 of a kind". When a player in my room calls down 3 barrels, he's thinking on a different level of "I know my hand is crap, but I think you're aggro enough to barrel 3 streets with A high, and I don't think it really makes sense for you to bet the river after I've called the turn on this board". Same result, but much higher advanced thinking (misguided or not), which applies to other situations as well
To be fair to Harrington, the book is over 6 years old at this point at least from the writing stage. From my own recollection of the time, Harrington wrote an accurate description of an 1/2 game at that time. Poker play has improved considerably since that time as it did even before that time.

I'm a big fan of the "unofficial guides" books for nearly 20 years (both Las Vegas and Disney). The guides are worth their weight in gold in terms of the time they have saved me and my family along with the recommendations of where to stay/eat. I saved my first Las Vegas book that mentions that you can try poker, but be aware there might be one player who knows something about the game. Today, you'd be thrilled to have one villain that was a clueless noob at your table.

Some of us are old enough to remember the era where making a "cbet" was a big bluff that only top pros made with air. You played fit or fold. Today, many forum regulars here would have been favorites in cash games even at the nose bleed levels in 2003. If you don't believe it, watch the 2003 main event coverage.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #158
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

Harrington's books were released in '04, '05 & '06. It's been 7 to 9 years, agreed that Hold 'Em has changed, but for someone completely new to poker they should be manditory.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:09 PM   #159
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Anyway, let's say, for instance, that you had to rely on poker as your major source of income, and were playing 30hrs+ a week rather than 10. How would your poker life change? Would you need to play 2/5 more often than not? And, importantly, would you need to develop a strategy that was more "balanced", both in terms of your preflop range and turn and river play? For, what strikes me about your strategy in general is that, while it's clearly successful in your poker room at 1/3, it's not so open to "adjustment" (apart from table selecting). I say this because the need to "adjust" becomes even more important when you are playing more hours, since other players in the room have greater opportunity to analyse your game style and exploit its predictable elements. I would be very interested to know whether you've been placed in many situations where some of the better regulars have placed sustained pressure on you (e.g. by 3betting light, floating to bluff turns and rivers, etc.) and whether you've responded in any other way apart from a table change Personally, if I was in your room, and I saw how you were raking in pots, with your game style, I would be making poker life difficult for you, almost as a default, and hoping that you would adjust, as a basic levelling strategy. Or are you just too nice a guy to allow this to happen?
For now the 2/5 stuff is moot, since a higher game than 1/3 NL simply doesn't run in our room (I can't remember the last time I've seen it run personally, probably many months ago, but then again I usually don't get out on Friday/Saturday nights where I sometimes here people say "oh yeah, they got a 2/5 game going last night").

Yes, I would think I'd probably have to adjust my strategy if I was forced to sit at the table with lottsa of better regs / deepstacked OOP / etc. I think some of this is buried within my basic strategy already (i.e. sliding scale of how often I might have to call a bet on later streets vs fold; sliding scale of how often I bet the flop due to how often I am likely to get check/raised and build a pot size I'm uncomfortable with; etc.). If you were at my table trying to make things hard on me, I'd really just have to get position on you and I think I'd be ok. Also, while you might be trying to make my life difficult, thankfully there is usually a few other fish in the hand that you're going to have to worry about. Sometimes the better regs just end up staying out of each other's way not by purpose but simply due to game flow and having to concentrate on the fish.

Overall, the money making part of my strategy is basically: sit at great tables, have good position on the one other good guy at the table if he likes to cause me problems, and table change / seat change when conditions become bad. I'm sure my winrate would plummet straight into the ground otherwise; it's why I don't post in 2/5 threads. I know where my money comes from.

GknowswheremymoneycomesfromG
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #160
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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To be fair to Harrington, the book is over 6 years old at this point at least from the writing stage. From my own recollection of the time, Harrington wrote an accurate description of an 1/2 game at that time. Poker play has improved considerably since that time as it did even before that time.

I'm a big fan of the "unofficial guides" books for nearly 20 years (both Las Vegas and Disney). The guides are worth their weight in gold in terms of the time they have saved me and my family along with the recommendations of where to stay/eat. I saved my first Las Vegas book that mentions that you can try poker, but be aware there might be one player who knows something about the game. Today, you'd be thrilled to have one villain that was a clueless noob at your table.

Some of us are old enough to remember the era where making a "cbet" was a big bluff that only top pros made with air. You played fit or fold. Today, many forum regulars here would have been favorites in cash games even at the nose bleed levels in 2003. If you don't believe it, watch the 2003 main event coverage.
Ya, stuff like this really scares me, and it's why I'm pretty much a "the sky is falling" kinda guy. There were 3 or 4 1/3 NL tables going in my room this Saturday and I was at the best one (by far) sitting in the Jesus seat to the left of the two most spewy players at a table full of morons. Slowly but surely, the poorer players at the table busted out and were replaced by the better players in the room who were lined up to table change to our table. The one spew fish to my immediate right finally cashed out and all of a sudden I realized the table now consisted of 9 of the best players in the room at the time and the one remaining spewy fish. Admittedly, "best players in the room" isn't necessarily saying a whole lot (I don't want to give *too* much credit to these guys), but if I had to sit at this table all the time, there was no way I was going to make any real money. The fish the game revolved around (lol, I can't believe I just said a 1/3 NL game revolved around a single fish) was getting shorterstacked and getting ready to leave, so I made a pre-emptive strike and got the table change button before 8 other guys would request the same thing, and got on a better table before anyone else did. Is the table I was sitting at (9 okish guys with one fish) the table of 10 years from now? Ug.

Gtheskyisfalling,althoughadmittedlyitmighttakeawhi leG
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:27 PM   #161
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Harrington's books were released in '04, '05 & '06. It's been 7 to 9 years, agreed that Hold 'Em has changed, but for someone completely new to poker they should be manditory.
Don't get me wrong, I still think HOC is the nuts and mandatory reading for noobs.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:16 PM   #162
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

GG- nh, well-played ITT.

Post one boner-inducing hand from a recent session (such as perhaps the 8-10s big win you limped with on pg 7). Please, just a real brag to illustrate how your solid hand range can induce a true spazz-out for big moniez from a 1/3 table.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:01 PM   #163
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Post one boner-inducing hand from a recent session (such as perhaps the 8-10s big win you limped with on pg 7). Please, just a real brag to illustrate how your solid hand range can induce a true spazz-out for big moniez from a 1/3 table.
The biggest hand I can hazily recall from my recent streak went ~something like this. I'm sitting at least $600 deep at the 1/3 NL table and so are two spazzy players. Spewy Guy likes to open light all the time and is pretty spewy postflop, but the real mark is this Asian Lady who has just been setting money on fire all night long; she's on her 3rd or 4th buy-in, and it's pretty clear her method of poker is to just aggro get the money in with crap hands and try to get people off their hands. So Asian Lady overlimps a limp or two and then Spewy Guy opens to $15. Maybe a call (?) and I just flat with JJ cuz that's how I roll. Maybe another call, and it's back on the Asian Lady who limp/reraises to like $125. Now normally, a limp/reraise sets up huge alarm bells and JJ can go into the muck pretty quick; but not against her, I'm fairly certain I have the nuts here. Folds to me and I again flat with JJ. Pot now ~$275, flop is 886r, Asian Lady donks $200, I ship, she insta-calls and asks "How high your pocket pair?". I show my JJ. She shows her 55. My hand holds up. (or something like that) I'm sure I'd get a lotta flack on here for playing the 4th strongest hand in poker so passively preflop (and I'll admit, having a A/K come on the flop sorta sucks), but it's the passive play thru out that allows aggrotards to do their thing and get in 200bb stacks with absolute junk.

I also have to laugh at those who constantly want to build up the pot preflop because that's the only way they think they'll be able to play for 100+ bb stacks. This simply isn't true. Case in point, last session I overlimp AA in MP after a couple of very spewy guys limp. It's an incredibly loose and raisey table, so it's by far my default move here. Unfortunately, it limps around. Whoops. JJ4r flop, I let it check around on the flop. Ok, so for those paying attention, keep in mind we are now on the turn and all we've seen go into the pot so far is about $20 worth of limps preflop. Tr on the turn and the SB donks out $15. The tightish BB calls. Everyone folds to me and I passively call. So here we go to the river and there's only $65 in the pot. Ace on the river. SB bets $60, BB tank/calls the $60. Now SB still has about $250 left, while BB and I are sitting much deeper at ~$600. So with $185 in the pot, I shove, SB calls, and BB makes an obvious hero fold of some type (he's a good player, I'm not expecting to really get paid off by him, but it doesn't hurt to try). Now, this hand does have cooler written on it as SB actually flopped the J4 boat, and obviously I get super lucky by hitting a 2 outer by the river. But he woulda payed off on the river even with a lone Jx anyways. And I was able to take his whole ~$325 stack in a limped pot where the flop even checked thru. Meanwhile, I woulda lost pretty much the minimum had I not filled up.

I'm not sure those stories illustrate what I'm trying to get at very well. I'm just trying to say that we can play very passively preflop and still be able to be big winners in this game.

This might be far too results oriented over far too small a sample size (really, I do think it is), but my preflop passivity has actually increased greatly from my early hours of these 1000 hours towards the later hours. Early on, I was much more aggro from EP (AJs? KQs? Open limp? Ha, never! Horrible! And I'm going to throw in some raises with 66 and JTs just for balance!). Lately, all I do with these hands is mostly open limp; just open limp and get in a pot for as cheap as possible and see where it gets me. Again, very lol sample sized, so beware of conclusions, but the 200 hour breakdowns have shown my winrate has dramatically increased since I became a lot more passive preflop.

GgettingintoapotforcheapG
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:08 PM   #164
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Also, while you might be trying to make my life difficult, thankfully there is usually a few other fish in the hand that you're going to have to worry about. Sometimes the better regs just end up staying out of each other's way not by purpose but simply due to game flow and having to concentrate on the fish.
Makes sense, changing tables and seats are options many don't take often enough IMO. Of course, another key advantage of playing lower-stakes is the larger playing pool, which you seem to be exploiting well. I guess there is a fish-threshold that is built into your overall strategy. If the skill of your player pool improved, or for whatever reason the size of the pool decreased, then I'd assume that your strategy would evolve and probably become more balanced, although I could be wrong here. Still interested to know how your style would fare at 2/5; it might function as normal at this stake in certain rooms.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:23 PM   #165
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Ya, stuff like this really scares me, and it's why I'm pretty much a "the sky is falling" kinda guy. There were 3 or 4 1/3 NL tables going in my room this Saturday and I was at the best one (by far) sitting in the Jesus seat to the left of the two most spewy players at a table full of morons. Slowly but surely, the poorer players at the table busted out and were replaced by the better players in the room who were lined up to table change to our table. The one spew fish to my immediate right finally cashed out and all of a sudden I realized the table now consisted of 9 of the best players in the room at the time and the one remaining spewy fish. Admittedly, "best players in the room" isn't necessarily saying a whole lot (I don't want to give *too* much credit to these guys), but if I had to sit at this table all the time, there was no way I was going to make any real money. The fish the game revolved around (lol, I can't believe I just said a 1/3 NL game revolved around a single fish) was getting shorterstacked and getting ready to leave, so I made a pre-emptive strike and got the table change button before 8 other guys would request the same thing, and got on a better table before anyone else did. Is the table I was sitting at (9 okish guys with one fish) the table of 10 years from now? Ug.

Gtheskyisfalling,althoughadmittedlyitmighttakeawhi leG
I have these same exact fears, I have certainly noticed the increase in skill over the last 5 years. When I first transitioned from online to live, I thought I was in the twilight zone, I couldn't believe how soft the games were.

Now my tables will always have 1 to 2 decent players, and sometimes be filled up with them. But as you said, table change! I just worry about the days when table changes will no longer be enough.

Its kind of sad sometimes, all of the sharks gathering around the 1 or 2 fish, like 10 jocks all drooling/hitting on the one hot chick at the bar.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:07 PM   #166
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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. . . my preflop passivity has actually increased greatly from my early hours of these 1000 hours towards the later hours. Early on, I was much more aggro from EP (AJs? KQs? Open limp? Ha, never! Horrible! And I'm going to throw in some raises with 66 and JTs just for balance!). Lately, all I do with these hands is mostly open limp; just open limp and get in a pot for as cheap as possible and see where it gets me.

GgettingintoapotforcheapG
Makes sense to me. I've had a couple bad runs lately precisely bc I know my range is ahead of theirs, I want to blast pre, followed by a healthy cbet.

I need to start peeling a few more overlimps with JTs and 99, esp in mid-position; need to stop leaking by hammering these clowns (and then not giving up my initiative) MW with those kind of hands.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #167
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

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Makes sense to me. I've had a couple bad runs lately precisely bc I know my range is ahead of theirs, I want to blast pre, followed by a healthy cbet.

I need to start peeling a few more overlimps with JTs and 99, esp in mid-position; need to stop leaking by hammering these clowns (and then not giving up my initiative) MW with those kind of hands.
I think the one thing that stuck with me from Gordon's Little Green Book is the example he gives where (my memory is a bit hazy on this, so don't quote me) he just flats a raise with 99 in position, flops a set, and wins a hugenormous pot postflop thanks to his fairly passive preflop play (a pot that very well could have ended preflop with a very small win had he gotten more aggressive and 3bet). The point I took from this, and I think it applies to the game I play in, is that we can simply pass on our small equity advantages preflop and just get into a pot with as many people as possible with hands that play well multiway and then win hugenormous pots postflop (i.e. winning the occasional hugenormous pot which is easily played postflop is far more EV overall than attempting to win a bunch of small pots which are more difficult to play postflop).
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:10 PM   #168
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

I agree that it's not always a mistake to limp those hands, you just have to be prepared to fold TP sometimes.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:29 AM   #169
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

Great thread. Subscribed.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:24 AM   #170
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

This is absolutely fantastic. I find that when I'm playing my A game, it's very similar to your style. Great, great, read. Thanks so much for putting this together and congrats on 1000 hours!
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:35 PM   #171
Davis85
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

you are an advanced player. Especially compared to the amount of hours that you've logged.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:52 PM   #172
Nouveau Pauvre
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

I saw some mention of some great music in this thread - that Big Star cover is a really important track to me.

Do you ever listen to Mark Kozelek/Red House Painters? Also for that style I think some of Dave Pajo's (Slint) solo work is very powerful.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:02 PM   #173
gobbledygeek
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouveau Pauvre View Post
Do you ever listen to Mark Kozelek/Red House Painters? Also for that style I think some of Dave Pajo's (Slint) solo work is very powerful.
I've heard of those bands, but never listened to them. I don't have as much time/energy to listen to bands I've never listened to as I once did.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:27 PM   #174
Davis85
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

[QUOTE=

the stoving/range stuff is a lot more difficult and, frankly, I suck at it in real time at the table
- I had a lot of trouble incorporating range thinking. I HIGHLY recommend reading Ed Millers " how to READ HANDS IN NO LIMIT HOLD'EM" It will take your game up a level. Great post
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:09 PM   #175
FoldnDark
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Re: A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL

GJ, GG. Will read all of this later.
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