Some serious mirror-imaging going on here. Just because you would not play a certain hand a certain way does not remove it from your opponent's range unless you're playing solitaire.

grunch

I don't play this high, so take my post with a grain of salt.

On the button, I raise the first time around, 60-70.

I like your thought process on the flop and turn.

On the river, this card is the NUT LOW for you. I would just give up and check it back. Looks specifically like villain has a K and puts you on a turned flush or a 9. If the river was anything but a K, I would not mind a bet.

Calling is terrible (regardless of the outcome). I didn't do math. But roughly you need to be good 30%.

He doesn't have 30% bluffs. Not even close. Unless he thinks your a total tool.

But hey. Everyone has tried to bluff stations before.

I would play exactly this way vs, stationy players, who like to steal pots.

How many hours have you played with V? You seem to have very concrete views on his range and moves.

OTF, if V is very straightforward you can float a lot of flops and take it away on the turn. My view of JT OTF is that it's effectively ATC, so you need to be very sure that V is (i) raising pre with a wide range, (ii) c-betting a ton (almost 100% of the time) and (iii) always check-folding turn if he misses (including treating pocket pairs under 99 that aren't 77 as misses). You don't have a lot of back up plans if those aren't true. Given the way the rest of the hand played out, I don't think that (iii) is correct, in which case this is a bad float. The turn was one of the better cards for your range, and he still check/called rather than check/fold. Moreover, if you really thought he was super straightforward, you'd likely give up when he called your turn bet, and insta-muck when he raises your river bet. So, coming back to it I still dislike the float on the flop.

Hero's hand looks like 9x or a flush, maybe Kx. If villain perceives this, would he try to bluff an opponent off of this range?

If the hand doesn't make sense because the turn and river action don't fit together, it's more likely that he played the turn weirdly than him playing the turn how you would predict and doing something weird on the river.

Words of wisdom right here.

No. I can assure you this is not the case. I will play hands in all sorts of strange ways, but most others players don't (or at least, don't knowingly).

I agree with this. I don't think checking the turn is that unusual. But I do think that check-calling the turn and then check-raising the river (on this particular board) is very strange.

Ha! Indeed.

I get this. But if he bets £750 after that river, I struggle to call with a flush.

As many people have pointed out - it would be normal for him to check/call with a King on the turn. I would totally believe his story if he led the river with a bet (and of course I only have J-high, so it would be ridiculous to call).

I honestly felt there was a chance he would call with Ace-high if I shoved. I really spent much too long thinking about this. There was no way I could have a King. Obviously I might have a flush and be pondering whether I was beat...but why would I then re-shove? But it was definitely part of my thinking.

FWIW, he doesn't fold the low boat here either, even if I don't spend forever dwelling. I also don't think he checks the turn with a 9, but that's a separate discussion.

However high or low the game is, thought processes are the same. Thanks for adding your input. To be honest, I don't usually play this high either.

I haven't really discussed pre-flop, although it has been mentioned a couple of times.

With this hand in this situation, I call about half the time and raise half the time. I don't mind taking the lead in the hand, but I also don't mind playing multi-way in position.

When he put in the raise, I wished I had just checked too!

The way I read this is:

"I don't agree with you.

But I can't form the sentences to explain why, so I will just say you're a bad player, that you are a 'station,' and that if we were at the same table I'd easily take all your money.

I will tell you this in a suitably scathing/sarcastic tone so that everyone knows that I am completely correct."

He certainly may think I am a total tool. But for what it's worth, I can tell you that, although I do like to steal a lot of pots, I am definitely NOT a "stationy player." (I once folded Aces pre-flop). If you were to play "exactly this way" you would be missing out on an absolute ton of value.

I had been playing with him ALL NIGHT so I knew his game inside out.

...Ok, kidding. You're completely correct, I hadn't played many hours with him. Perhaps I am clouding his specific lines of play with some of the more general lines of play I had seen from players who fit in the same category as him. But at the time I played this hand I would have said I had a complete grasp on the way he was playing his hands on that day, in that session, at that time.

For your other points:

(i) He was raising pre with a very wide range.
(ii) C-betting somewhere between 80-90%.
(iii) No, I don't think he is always just giving up and check-folding the turn. It would depend on his specific cards after that point.

I agree - from the way I have played this hand, it certainly looks like I have a hand. He should never be bluffing this spot.

But in a similar vein, why would he be check-raising when a simple strong bet carries far more value...? (Assuming Villain's hand is beating my perceived range?)


This makes sense. The thinking behind this is that he may have got scared on the turn? Lost concentration? Worried about the last card to come? But then after the river he knows his hand's strength and can just play accordingly?

But I have also seen many people do some strange things on the river - perhaps because they had a set on the flop and aren't willing to let it go, or because the pot is big and they desperately want to win it, or simply because there's no other way for them to win it that to do something crazy.

Sounds like I got my point across well.

Your advocating I huge hero call, in spot where neither of you have capped range.

His bet is more than 100BB. His turn calling range is stronger than your giving him credit for.

He likely is check/ calling most of his kings on turn. Yet you don't see why.

Your taking decent advice and all your answers are, "ya, but"

He doesn't have many bluffs left in his range by river.

He is not offering you good odds to call.

Your previous actions, indicate you have stationy tendencies. What hands are you ever folding flop with? Maybe suited connectors below a 9, that don't have backdoor flush possibilities?

Limp calling 10-J from button vs aggro straddler, is fairly bad. When raising is obv, +EV.

Biggest question you should answer is.

Why are you betting River with enough showdown value to call a +100BB raise?
When you can't possible get value from worse?

So yes, I think bluff/calling river is atrocious. Raising>>>>calling.

Truely happy it worked out for ya. But in noway, did you play this hand well.

If this guy would ever, ever call a river shove with ace-high and is likely calling with 9x, he's a huge station and you should just be value betting him to death. Frankly, my calling range for a 3-bet shove would be solely Kx+.

Seems like your reads on V are all over the place. On the one hand you think he could call a river shove with ace-high or the bottom boat, but on the other hand you're bluffing with your initial turn bet presumably because you think he can fold a hand like ace-high to one bet. You're floating him on a flop with a king on it presumably because you think he's going to check-fold on most turns, but on the other hand you think he's capable of bluff-raising a double paired board on the river with worse than Jack-high. I think you're leveling yourself. Unless you've seen him make some really crazy river moves, I'd go back to general principles, which is that river raises are usually nutted, or at least hands that the raiser thinks are nutted, and make the snap-fold.

Good post,

Ya, but, Hero think he folds all his trash on turn. It is why he floated flop.

But know that he called turn and raised on river. Hero may have been wrong about flop, because he still can't have a hand.

10-8, 88, 66,55,44,33,22. Make up so much of his preflop raising range. And his turn float range.

It is a no brainer fold. Half his bluffs beat us. A ton of realley bad value raises beat us.

Calling is worst option. If your dead set on calling. Need to at least raise. Get him to dump naked Ace of spades (which should be majority of most of his spazz bluffs)

Either you were in a tournament (which has little relevance here) or this is a troll account. NH.

seems like you folded and he showed you a bluff?

actually you are right you dont represent anything because your turn action does not fit river due to respective turn and river cards..

he could donk with 9 and keep donking turn as well: I do not put him on a 9 here. King could make sense .

it s too costy to find out - he put the right raise price.

there is a better spot...

After betting ott would you bet otr your flush, k or a 9, and your bluffs?
If yes why wouldn't he check otr?

Many hands that win there... A9, Kx, any small pocket pair any suited connector. They all beat you. Even if he doesn't have them he prob sensed weakness given you were on the button and put you to the test. Either way there is nothing that you beat with J high... You were willing to fold if someone raised it pre. I would have folded on the flop, you were drawing to a 4 outer that could very well had been beat since he had a wide range of hands he could very well have K9s. Either way I would have folded. And the way the hand plays out I would def not have called the river bet.

Grunch

Hand is a good example of why we should stick to suited hands and come in for a raise.