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Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards

11-20-2013 , 09:32 AM
I come up with these general situations often so thought I'd post a hand to ask for advice...

Let's say I hold 79o in the BB in a limped pot..

Flop comes: 974 with 2 diams
I lead out almost pot, get one caller

Turn brings another diamond
Is check-calling better than bet-folding here?

Suppose we check-call or get a call over out bet

River brings another diamond
Do we insta check-fold here?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 09:42 AM
Depends on who called. If you don't know much about villain or don't have a reason to go with something else then bet/fold is usually OK. If the caller likes to chase flushes and doesn't have much else in his range, then just check/fold unless villain bets so little you can chase your boat. If villain is habitually bluffy here and could have as little as a single pair or two over cards, then check/call a lot.

River is usually a check/fold when 4 to the flush hits, but you can bluff catch against the most bluffy villains some of the time.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
just check/fold unless villain bets so little you can chase your boat
How little is so little?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 10:04 AM
flop bet call
turn b/f
depends. assuming it went b/c on the turn in a complete vacuum generally continuing but not looking to shove my stack in their either.

Q: V tendencies to bluff? Has V been aggro or re-popping weak bets? Calling station? Chases draws? hero's image?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants
How little is so little?
8% of the pot if I understand your question right

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playertee
8% of the pot if I understand your question right

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums
Let's say it's an 18$ pot into which I led 15$ on flop. Pot is now 48$.

8% of 48 is around $4 which is never going to happen obv.

V bets 20$ or 25$ OTT. Doesn't snapfolding look terribly weak here? I'd rather bet-fold a similar amount. Right?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 10:33 AM
There are two questions you need to ask:

1) Is he betting anything but a made flush?

2) Is he calling with anything but a made flush?

The answers will determine whether you should x/c or b/f.

Against the unknown average LLSNL villain, I'm b/f the turn.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
Against the unknown average LLSNL villain, I'm b/f the turn.
Let's say we bet the turn and get called. Are we b/f a brick river? Or just c/f?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 11:01 AM
That's the problem with check calling you can miss value and you have no idea were you are at. This is really player dependent tho, you'd have to know if they are capable of bluffing in that spot. Most of the time tho I would fold top 2 on a 4 flush board as a general rule vs an unknown.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants
Let's say we bet the turn and get called. Are we b/f a brick river? Or just c/f?
Most likely b/f again. But it will depend on the brick. If the brick is an A, then I may c/f since we might be counterfeitted by A-up. The same is true if the board pairs and we do not make the boat.

The reason I am biased towards b/f against unknowns is that average villains are predisposed to get to showdown cheaply and will not bet weak-made hands in the face of a flush board.

We can fold happily to any raise, btw...
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-20-2013 , 11:11 AM
Against typical loose-passive LLSNL villains, b/f is almost always better than c/c in the situation you described. You won't get bluff raised very often, and lots of opponents who would call a bet with worse will check behind if you let them.

As others have said, it's player dependent; c/c is fine against the aggro players who bet any time anyone shows any weakness.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
Most likely b/f again. But it will depend on the brick. If the brick is an A, then I may c/f since we might be counterfeitted by A-up. The same is true if the board pairs and we do not make the boat.

The reason I am biased towards b/f against unknowns is that average villains are predisposed to get to showdown cheaply and will not bet weak-made hands in the face of a flush board.

We can fold happily to any raise, btw...
So do we bet small on brick rivers there because we're scared of the flush? Or more?
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 05:00 AM
I prefer not to bet fold with 2 pair. We are giving up too much equity here esp if Villain has a flush.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 05:20 AM
Flop I'd b/r

Turn, unless it's against a serious nit it's a b/f. If you're going to c/c, you need to have odds to boat up. Vs are horrible, so they'll have the straight draw a lot of the time, TP-no kicker a lot of the time, worse 2pair, even overs lol, so we really can't forego betting for value. Now that I'm thinking about the nit comment I just wrote, I'd even b/f against them. Once they bet, we can probably be a certain % sure they have a flush, but just by them limping pf and calling our lead otf, how can we nail them for a flush? So I'd lead all turns. Bank on the fact that if you do get raised, most people don't understand value or math, and they'll probably min raise or something stupid, and do the math but I'd expect you to have odds (especially accounting for IO) a lot of the time to call.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 06:12 AM
Betting is way betting than checking.

People will call with Pairs+FD's, top pairs, lower two pairs etc.

People sometimes think you're bluffing when you bet bet, but won't bet turn if checked too.

You lose way too much value by checking.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants
Let's say it's an 18$ pot into which I led 15$ on flop. Pot is now 48$.

8% of 48 is around $4 which is never going to happen obv.

V bets 20$ or 25$ OTT. Doesn't snapfolding look terribly weak here? I'd rather bet-fold a similar amount. Right?
Yes, your probably never going to get direct odds to chase. Your looking at direct+implied odds here. How much will villain put into pot if you do catch a boat? Mostly though, your hoping they check behind. That won't happen a whole lot but it will happen more then it should.

And keep in mind, I'm only suggesting the check line against villains who will chase any flush draw but won't call with much else on flop. Against generic villains bet/fold is better because 99% of villains will never raise turn without a flush but will call with lots of hands you beat.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote
11-21-2013 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzypants
So do we bet small on brick rivers there because we're scared of the flush? Or more?
I'm not really a big fan of the bet small unless its a bet to induce a spazz.

Just make your normal value bet.
Check-calling vs bet-folding with 2p+ on 3flush+ boards Quote

      
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