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Old 03-26-2017, 10:20 PM   #1
Acquittal
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To cbet or not to cbet...?

2/3 NL.

V1 ($300): Somewhat tight middle-aged Asian guy. Fairly ABC, but capable of bluffing.

V2 ($150): Loose-passive middle-aged Asian guy. Very fit or fold postflop.

Hero (covers): Pre-op transvestite wearing my favorite blonde wig. 40-year-old in a t-shirt and jeans. I've been getting hit by the deck, so I'm sitting on $1100 from my initial $300 buy-in. Playing fairly TAG, but I'm always assumed to be looser than I am -- maybe because of my table talk.

V1 limps UTG, folds to hero in the CO with TT. Hero makes it $15. V2 calls from the button and V1 calls UTG. Three to the flop.

Flop ($45): K44 rainbow. V1 checks.

Hero? Is this a cbet, a check/call, or a check/fold? It feels like the kind of flop where I can't get called by worse and I certainly can't get better to fold. What does a cbet accomplish here?

Similarly, what do you guys do on, say, an ace-high flop with KK? Is that a different situation?
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:29 PM   #2
mark "twang"
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Against these specific V's, you almost need to turn your hand into a bluff and c-bet hoping to take it down. If you check, it looks really weak and opens the door for either V to take a stab and easily double barrel you off of your hand.

Additionally, betting allows you to get value since there's a chance the button could call one street with 55-99 and not try and steal from you on the turn and river if he thinks he has showdown value against your perceived A-high.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:32 PM   #3
stuntman
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Your cbet can be called by worse hands (e.g. 55-99, which are in V1's range. AQ and AJ may decide to float). And your don't want to give a free card to hands like AJ, AQ. I probably cbet this flop unless I think villains are too aggressive.


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Old 03-26-2017, 10:37 PM   #4
johnnyBuz
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

C-bet $20. Pretty standard spot.

If called by UTG and turn goes x/x the river can also be a small value bet.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:42 PM   #5
Dream Machine
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

I like a check here. It's hard for V1 or V2 to have us beat, and we're wayyy behind when we are beat here. There aren't a whole lot of turns or rivers that are bad for our hand. Checking allows V2 to bluff on the flop in position. I'd call his flop bet and probably another bet on the turn. If V2 checks the flop, and either of them bet on turn or river then I'd call those bets also.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:08 PM   #6
iversonian
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuntman View Post
Your cbet can be called by worse hands (e.g. 55-99, which are in V1's range. AQ and AJ may decide to float). And your don't want to give a free card to hands like AJ, AQ. I probably cbet this flop unless I think villains are too aggressive.


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this. you can bet tiny like $15 with your entire betting range.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:03 PM   #7
gobbledygeek
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

A cbet protects our pot when it is best, which it most likely is. If one guy has overs and one guy has an underpair, that's 8 combined outs against us; no reason to give them a free card, imo. The bigger our pair, the more we are WA/WB, and the less combined outs against us, and therefore the more we can think about checking back. Here, I'd fire out a cbet almost always. Doesn't have to be big. I'd go $20.

ETA: If we think V1 could get bluffy on this type of flop, then checking it back to setup a bluffcatcher isn't horrible either. So yeah, I guess I don't always cbet this flop as it is opponent dependent. But mostly I'd lean towards a bet against ABC type players.

GcluelesscbettingnoobG
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:09 PM   #8
willperkins
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Preflop: I usually limp with TT with one limper. I am not saying raising is wrong, just stating my usual play.

As played: Since you showed strength preflop a c-bet, even into two players is not out of the norm. If called, I would certainly slow down.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:15 PM   #9
cdsnuts123
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willperkins View Post
Preflop: I usually limp with TT with one limper. I am not saying raising is wrong, just stating my usual play.

As played: Since you showed strength preflop a c-bet, even into two players is not out of the norm. If called, I would certainly slow down.


Limping with pocket tens sounds like a great way to lose money in the long run


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Old 03-27-2017, 12:26 PM   #10
JacetheMind
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willperkins View Post
Preflop: I usually limp with TT with one limper. I am not saying raising is wrong, just stating my usual play.

As played: Since you showed strength preflop a c-bet, even into two players is not out of the norm. If called, I would certainly slow down.
This is bad. TT are a good value hand, and they should be played as such. Raise for value, and to isolate the limper.

OTTH: This is a good spot to C-bet, as the flop texture is better for our range than our opponent's. You should be c-betting most of your pre raising range here.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:15 PM   #11
Havok
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Heads up I'm C-betting here a large percentage of the time unless I have a read Villian will bluff raise me too often. If you check, your giving your opponent a chance to out draw you on the turn. Expect to get a fold here often as Villian should only continue with a King, four, or small pocket pair. Sometimes I will check here for pot control, but more often when I have position, as opposed to when I'm OOP. When I do check, I try to check occasionally with my strong hands on this flop texture as well to balance my ranges.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:19 PM   #12
MIB211
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

I think this is a c-bet for the reasons stated above. Can get called by worse pairs and get overcards to fold their equity.

KK on an ace-high board is very different. First, people play Ax as a limp/call or cold-call much more often than they limp/call or cold-call with Kx, so it's more likely we're beat. Second, with KK on an ace-high board we don't have to worry about overcards hitting, so more of a WA/WB situation.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:41 PM   #13
ronrabbit
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Limping tt would be terra-bad........ Just awful
Yes we need to c-bet mostly to stop those hands with overs getting there, but also we could get called by worse here, if we get called, we can mostly shut down, maybe check call one Street more...
Kk on an a board is slightly different because there are no overs left, so I will sometimes c-bet that spot, sometimes check, call....Against certain villans it's an easy check fold....
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:04 PM   #14
Redskins 47
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Limping 1010 isn't that bad at a call happy table, considering the flop will bring over cards about 70% of the time. I prefer to raise 1010 and JJ pretty big preflop though. I don't like turning 1010 into 22 and playing purely to set mine.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:48 AM   #15
gobbledygeek
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskins 47 View Post
Limping 1010 isn't that bad
+1

Comments above regarding "terrabad" / "long term way to lose money" / etc. are fairly exaggerated, imo. Getting into a pot with TT can hardly be remotely close to either of those statements. Is it as +EV as raising? Probably not. But it's not "quit poker" bad either.

GFWIW,IwouldraisepreflopinthiscasealmostalwaysG
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Old 03-28-2017, 12:11 PM   #16
spikeraw22
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Grunch: great cbet board when you have air. Having TT makes it better because you are still getting called by worse sometimes. Protect yourself. Bet.
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Old 03-28-2017, 01:13 PM   #17
pocketzeroes
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

I look at this as a 9 out board, similar to being up against a FD. E.g. If one villain has JQ and another has Ax, they have a combined total of 9 outs. So I bet right around half pot which is a full pot for them to both call (of course I don't actually expect them to call with air). If I was up against one other villain, I'd be more inclined to check, and try to get a bet or two on the turn/river
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Old 03-28-2017, 01:20 PM   #18
wj94
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Re: To cbet or not to cbet...?

Bet $15-20 with entire range
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