Excalibur 1/2 Las Vegas

Table is limp fest and calling stations. No real 3 bets and def no 4 bets preflop. I felt the players knew me to be pretty tight after folding a few orbits and not giving much action.

OTTH

EP old man ($450 stack) opens to $7
Three callers behind

Hero ($400 stack) in BB with KK raises to $37.

Original raiser 4 bets to $107.

Folds back around to hero.

Fold?
Call?
Raise?

old man and 4 bet just screams AA, given stack sizes and his raise size I could probably let it go.
if you call you got 1.5x PSB left, is a chance he got KK
most old men are not going to 4 bet with AK/QQ/JJ

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Almost never do I advocate folding KK pre. This is the exception. 200BB stacks and a non-AI 4-bet from an old man? I fold here pretty easily with reads as given.

Bigger pre

Ap fine spot to fold

Playing my whole continuing range as a call here. KK gets included that range. If you want to exploit fold you would need some insane reads and i dont think the population tendancy of old men at 1 2 is enough to justify calling here. Maybe Im wrong though

As much as id like to say you can find a fold here, in game i'm probably just getting it in.

im not 5betting shove to be called only by AA..

im calling here and checking the flop, he is still have QQ & AK in his range.

in my experience, OMC is not always AA when they 4bet. have you seen Abe in LATB? hehe

Not if he's an OMC he doesn't. I feel we throw that term around. For me an OMC has something like a 10% VPIP percentage, and less than 5% raise percentage. Some will only raise AA, KK from early position.

An OMC is not some random old guy.

Ugly spot.

Agree with above. He makes it $7 and get three callers. A normal pot sized raise would be:

$1 (SB) + $2 (BB) + $21 (original raise x 3) + $7 + $7 +$7 = $45 USD

Normally I wouldn't mind touching a bit down on that size, to maybe $42. That said, given you are in the BB and thus OOP I think the raise should be at least $45-$50.

Given there is still a fair amount of money left (due to the smaller sizing), can perhaps see a flop and judge his reaction from there? Against an OMC I think you will get very accurate information from his mannerism, bet size, speed of bet etc. on flop.

Ive played some sessions at Excalibur in Vegas, and the older nits there are really tight when it comes to aggression. Pure nut peddlers many of them. Many of you guys that dont play in Vegas or havent played there doesent have the knowledge of how nitty some of these guys are.

I agree with Garlick, this is certainly one of the very very few scenarios to seriously consider folding KK.

Every piece of information considered here this looks pretty much like only AA and nothing else.

I'm never raising here.

I'd need a stronger read than just "old man" to fold. Old men are generally very tight, but some will include AK/KK in this range as well. Flat, hope to flop a king, and navigate any <Q board carefully.

If he is truly an OMC, then you can fold, but you'll have needed to see some serious OMC stuff before to do that (ex. flatting QQ/AK).

Not all old men are identical. There are two old regs at my normal game. They're both quite tight (I'd flat to both), but against the true OMC one I'll fold while the other I can stack off on any non-A flop.

For those of you who are calling:
What exactly do you plan on the flop:
A high -> fold?
undercards -> fold?
aha, we hope to check down vs AK. or QQ on A high flop.
aha, we check and see if he bets, because a bet means AA?
what if he bets 80 into 240? what if he does this with QQ?

Personally, I think the decision is preflop already.
And because the cold 4 is AA more than 50% of times, I think it is a tight, but ok fold.

We find the fold. Show the KK. And he shows the AA!! LFG

Don't show, even though it induced him to help you feel good about your fold. You don't want the rest of the table to know that folding KK is even possible.

When at the Excalibur
Don't 5-bet with KK against those
Who actually played with King Arthur.

At least 50 pre the first time around. As played I call, and call down any non-Ace high run outs

55 pre.

AP Fold is fine.

Don't show, especially tight disciplined folds.

Yeah about the not showing part.

I asked if I fold will you show? And he said sure.

But the someone else at the table was like well then you have to show also. And I was like ughhh I guess. But still felt good to show. 😎

Good fold.

I’m pretty sure we could find more spots to fold KK pre than we realize nowadays.

You shouldn't care what people who aren't involved in the hand say or ask. You don't owe them a response and/or any action on your part. If they keep pestering you, just say something generic like "I had a pretty strong hand too".

Just fold, let him proudly show you his AA and move on.

We run into AA with KK about every 200 hours. And some of those times stack sizes or passive villains make the spot a trivial gii. So maybe once every 300 or 400 hours we can make a good fold if we can find it. Not sure we should be spending much time thinking about it.

Fold is fine against this player type in this game. I'm most certainly not showing it though, as there could always be 1-2 players at the table that will try to exploit you knowing that you folded KK PF.

I don't advocate hero folding KK PF, but in some particular instances like this one I really don't mind. AK is pretty much never a 4! from this player type in this game, so you're hoping he has QQ specifically, and even that's a rare proposition.

DON'T SHOW.

People will start bluffing you more, and you might start create leveling wars in your own head when you're faced with aggression... which will more likely than not lead to mistakes.

Who cares what the other guy says? Just lie and say you got caught bluffing, or had JJ lol... Or even 72 just for kicks.

If you can fold KK in even like 25-35%+ of the scenarios where you will almost always see AA and where people will just blindly stack-off bc "lol KK", then you've got a huge edge there. You can argue, "oh well when we have AA, KK will donate to us" but why can't you have that and then fold KK when it's extremely likely that our opponent has AA....? Seems like a double win to me. Though I will say there are few spots like this, but if we can identify them and be correct a good amount, that will increase our winrate by a good amount.

Your mileage may vary.

I have experienced KK<AA about every 100-150 hours LOL sample size <2000 hours.

Maybe there will come a stretch where I have immunity for 500-600 hours.

One can hope.

Correctly folded KK pre today. Felt good.