I am not very good with writing hand history on here, but i am curious how obvious it was to throw away this hand.

Live 2/5 - Red Rock Casino Las Vegas

Pretty big and loose 2/5 game, most stacks 200-300bb deep.

I am sitting with 950 at this time.

Pre-flop action was averaging 25$, 4-5 very active players and a couple of nits. Full Ring.

Middle position opens for 60$ (1000ish behind, 1 limp in front), on higher end of pre-flop raises, 45$ was getting 4-5 callers. 60 was a good way to isolate to about heads up or 3 handed. I have some hand history with this player, and have seen him raise 45$ in early position with 10's earlier in the night, but was definitly an action player with wide hand range. I was convinced he has a large pocket pair however.

Folds around to me (i was kind of surprised), I'm in the big blind and wake up with AK off. I call.

UTG +2 calls (770ish). This was a bit surprising to me, but he was kind of a conservative player but some irradic play. I Put his range with this call most pocket pairs under 10 and suited connectors of most variety.


Flop: A A 7

no flush draw.

I check fairly quickly, and UTG +2 goes All-In immediately for 650 and change into 180pot.

I am sitting with AK off, I am kind of sick, I ask for the count, express my suspicions to the table and make the call.

Board runs out 8, 2

He shows me the bad news. 77 for the boat.

Can i get away from this. Do lighter A-x make this move?

650 into the 180 pot, from a guy who seems to get it in good.

Just feeling like this was kind of an obvious muck (after the fact of course), and should of sniffed out such a strong play from a guy picking on someone with an A.

Great bet on his part in hindsight. I guess a better disguise would be to just raise it on UTG+2 spot, but it was obviously an effective move against me.

Its just one buy in.. you know you can't fold.

Re-pop it pre, calling OOP with drawing hands against more than 1 opponent is never a solid strategy IMO. What realm is this an obvious muck? 77 and A7 beat you, both of which you can still draw to a King, ship it and ::sigh:: rebuy when he shows you one of the two hands that beat you.

If you made a mistake in this hand, it was probably not considering 3-betting pre-flop with AKo. Even though you observe a bet-sizing tell, you are deep enough to fold to a 4-bet (if you're really dominated by AA or KK).

Also, the bet-sizing tell you mention doesn't necessarily ring true. Why would Villain make his raise larger with a big pair than with 10s? A 3-bet pre-flop would help you assess where you're at in this regard, and give you more information about this Villain's bet-sizing in general, which you might use to advantage later on in the session.

I would just forget about the flop call---you're losing to very few combos, so count it as a cooler and move on. It would be a mistake NOT to call here.

I 3 bet this hand pre from the blinds in this spot FWIW. And no of course you can't fold this flop.

Considering you didn't repop it preflop, don't you think he's thinking he's got the nuts with AQ too and could pull the same "trap" move? For all you know the ******'s got KK and just doesn't know what to do. It's not a fold by any means.

AK offsuit is a drawing hand??? please explain.

Op basically this is villain dependent and we will have a tough time giving you the "answer". if this villain is spewy and LAG then i prob call. If he is a nit then its probably a fold. If he is somthing in between then you have a decision to make but given the nature of the board i dont see many bluffs in his range. I mean what is he limp/calling from UTG with that we beat? Is this the type of player that is doing this with A5 suited type hands?

Hmmmm.... Pretty trivial fold when you put people on large pocket pairs. If you hit the flop, it's bad for his hand. Or more likely, you'll miss 70% of flops.

Edit: People wanting to 3bet, what result do you want?

OP, please provide us with reads on players and your image...

Otf - I don't think this is as easy a call as others are making it seem. I feel like it is one I probably make in the heat of the moment but question/regret later. U described him as a conservative player - a conservative player is not sticking 700 in on a kamikazee bluff. So he has at least Ax otf.

I also can't see him making this move with a medium or weak Ax. Most notably, he is leading into the PF aggresor who can have strong Ax in his range. Because of this, I think becomes a question of whether he would make this play with AQ or AJ. If not, its a fold.

This is a case of having a hand where the absolute value (3rd nuts) is high but the relative value is marginal.

Just making sure I have it right:

Preflop: Middle position opened to $60, Hero in the BB called and UTG+2 calls.
Flop ($180-ish): BB checks, UTG+2 shoves for $650, I'm assuming middle position folded.

Look at it this way: You have AK, so trip Aces with the best possible kicker...and I doubt you gave much thought to just shoving your stack in before checking. Would you shove from UTG+2 or MP? I doubt it, right? Would you be any -more- likely to shove with hands such as AQ? AJ?

You lose to A7 and 77. You can account for three of the aces, so A7 seems unlikely (and would A7 call such a large pre-flop raise?).

More importantly, if UTG+2 has A7....he's not shoving. He's got the mortal nuts and wants to keep people in the hand; he wants people to catch up. He's checking the flop. Not saying it's necessarily optmical base on villain reads, but that's what I think most people would do.

77 knows that at least one of the other pre-flop callers has an Ace and will find it -really- hard to dump it (as you proved). And for the same reason noted above, he's not that scared of A7. Ergo, the only hands he can have here are 77 or essentially air.

Ignoring the hands completely, you have 7 outs (the last A, 3 Ks, 3 7s - but obv. you can't include the full 3 7s as outs especially since you yourself put villain on a pocket pair.

I can't say I'm actually a fan of the shove, since I think he could have gotten at least another round of value betting/calling from the other two hands in play. 'Course, you ended up calling, so what do I know?

My feeling is that I just can't imagine any hand other than A7 or 77 shoving here. And having to call $650 to win $830 doesn't sound all that appealing to me.....

AK is a drawing hand
AK is a drawing hand
AK is a drawing hand
AK is a drawing hand
AK is a drawing hand
AK is a drawing hand

lol really? please....

Good post here. There are 3 ways villain can have 77 and 3 ways villain can have A7 given the board after the flop. If villain has AK hero splits (3 ways) and still could get beat or split if villain has AQ (4 ways).

You know there is no getting away from this. Cooler, reload.

I really appreciate all the input here. I see its almost an even split between calling off the stack or sniffing out the boat and getting away from it.

This was a tough spot. UTG+2 had made "some" questionable plays but overall was playing tight.

MP (initial raiser) told me he had KK as the board was being ran out.

I thought a few points were very considerate.

as for the 3 bet, 60$ was the largest pre-flop raise MP had made all night (~3 1/2 hours of play history with him that night). I was fairly convinced a 3 bet would induce a huge 4bet or possibly shove with QQ-AA, in which case i probably dont make the call and lose about 200$ as oppose to 800$.

I thought a better value would be to call and see if i snag the A or K on the flop, miricle straight (which would make me feel just as uncomfortable).

I did NOT expect UTG+2 to call, he had limped before and folded to comprable bets (35-45$) so i figured this was heads up.

When UTG+2 called i thought his hand was marginal, possibly a big suited A-x or Marginal pocket pair, suited connectors, although a conservative tight player might consider throwing away 77 here? but the EV to smash the flop going up against potential over pairs with our stacks gives him credence to call. Its an easy decision for him on the flop, if it hits Yatzee, if hit doesnt he gets away. It was sneaky and it paid off.

When he pulled the trigger it was quick, little thought process, no way he bluffs at this pot and i dont think he calls the 60$ pre with A-7 suited, he is a tighter player than that.

Someone asked about my image: I am young (27), most of the table is older (40+), i was playing a good amount of pots, I had won some big hands on draws and have been making some big bets and 3 betting more than anyone else at the table, but with that said i only 3bet 2-3 times that night. I would say i had a LAG image, i do think i was pegged for having a BIG hand with the pre-flop call.

I know if i had 77s in UTG+2 spot i probably throw out a good raise to sniff out the A but i dont know if i go all in right away, i figure i would of scared off weak A-x. Their was only about 180 in the pot, 650 into it, If all outs are presumed there, asuming 77 was his hand i have whatever the turn brings +3, 3K's and the last A. i was about a 5-1 dog at best, so the price was obviously not right. I think next time i fold if i find myself in a similar position with this type of player.

Its just very hard to get rid of the set + top kicker to that flop, but the value was just not there i guess.

Yea this is AQ/AJ way more than it's anything else. I think I'd laugh if I saw him flip this over. WP by him I guess.

similar situation happened to me past weekend.

i raise to 20 mp with aa, old guy calls from bo, heads up to flop, i have no read on him as he's new
flop came 7102ss, i cbet 30, he calls
turned 6c, i chk for pot control also maybe induce bets from draws, oh well, i got what i wish for, he shoves 340 into a 100 pot....

now what? lol

Played it fine, 3bet pre OOP to get 77 outa there. At least u didn't get it in drawing dead, board pairs or king drops and u scoop.

Every hand we are drawing. Ak included. If it's not the absolute nuts, then you are drawing.

folding here would be awful.

nobody answered devin's question about 3betting

what results do you want? what is your sizing? what continuing range do we put villain oon? what are villains tendencies in 3b pot postflop? what will we do on 9 hi flops? or qjx flops?

Reasons for 3-Betting:

1. The players are 200 BB deep. Hero can fold to a 4-bet and avoid getting stuck in a bloated pot OOP with TPTK, which might not be good.
3. To fold-out third player (such as the Villain 2 who ended-up spiking a set with mid p/p).
3. To get value from a Villain who flats with worse (e.g. AJ-AQ, KQ).

This isn't similar at all. The only part similar is the overbet, but literally everything else is completely different.

I do not agree with 3betting in this spot.

If their were a few other callers in late position i probably pop it up to 200-250. But This most assuredly would induce a 4 bet from initial raiser on the order of about 600$ or all in. He was sitting with about 220bb ish.

I got exactly where i wanted to be, heads up with a hand with good heads up value, i dont want to raise here, i am ok with flatting. The fact UTG+2 limp calls 60$ is slightly out of character for this player. Their were so many raises pre-flop at this particular table that i witnessed him fold to. Honestly the more i think about it i should of put 66-JJ in his range of pockets and big A-x, probably suited.

All 3 betting would have accomplished in this spot is cost me 200$ vs. 800$. Maybe i could have gotten lucky and he flats, i see the flop and i take down a 450$ pot.

I 3 bet with AK in similar positions with this hand, but thats usually when i am confident i am in a better spot. Their was a good chance he had KK or AA here. It turned out he did have KK, and i made the right flat. He was not trying to mask the strength of his hand with the 60$ bet.

It really comes down to being leery of UTG+2.


Lessons learned:

Beware of significant overbet

dont get married to the 3rd nut (really i believe the 2nd nuts as i never believe A7 is in this hand)

And consider my own investment into the pot, which at the time was only 60$. 6 bills looked juicy, but that was just the bait.

Even if he was bluffing in this spot i think i say great bet and walk away. Most of the time when i flop Trip A's with Top Kicker i will be good, this was one of those spots that it just did not feel right, was a gross spot but such a sick play. if UTG+2 puts initial raiser on something like JJ/QQ/KK and the "bluff" guarantees MP to fold, He must consider me to have a big A. AQ/AJ does not make this move, its way to strong when your hand could easily be dominated or likely to get no action since other players in hands probably wont have an A. AJ/AQ does what i do, check and let the initial raiser throw out a feeler bet with his Top 2 pair just in case he is up against other pairs.

Yeah, that makes absolutely no sense, and this is an LDO call. 3bet is much better pre, you don't want to play with huge effective stacks OOP.

Your logic is not convincing to me here. If you put the Villain on AA, KK, then you have less 20% equity and should fold (a hand like 67s has more equity than AK here, even A2o has more equity). If you put the Villain on AK, QQ, KK, AA, then you have closer to 40% equity and can justify a flat, but I still believe a 3-bet is preferable. I mean would you rather lose your whole stack than fold to a 4-bet? Furthermore, if you put the Villain on KK+, what was your plan if the board came K high? If it came just A high, would you be willing to risk all your chips (it's much easier when it comes AAx, of course)? 3-betting helps you navigate these scenarios by giving you more information as well as some "get-out" options.

I still maintain that your focus for this hand-anlysis should be on your pre-rather than post-flop action, because it's pre-flop where the mistake was really made. I don't believe it's sensible to conclude that in the future you should just fold to over-bets when effectively holding the 2nd nuts---there are many situations when this will prove to be -EV play.