Hey guys,

Been struggling a bit lately and am trying to take some time and plug some leaks in my game. I feel like im calling too wide here pre-flop and bleeding out some money. as a general rule, what requirements do you guys have for calling raises and why?

This depends what position you are in. Button and Small Blind are going to have very different answers. Also, depends on who is doing the raising (how they play, what position they're in, etc.)
More info needed to give any sort of meaningful answer.

Well one adjustment you could make is to consider that you need a stronger hand to play vs a competent opponent than you do a fish. This is certainly one of the biggest mistakes that a majority of players make.

The more I think about this, the closer I am to making the conclusion that its never a good idea in calling a raise, unless its a situation in where you have SC or a small/mid PP and are getting great expressed odds by way of an EP raise followed by multiple callers. if im calling a raise with the top 10% I should be 3betting more often then not right? and mucking the rest?

What?? No way. I suppose you could argue that if you are Out of Position then that logic makes some sense, but it certainly is not true if you are In Position.

Why would you suggest otherwise? theoretically if a call is +EV a raise would be increased +EV correct?

If ALL that mattered was the value of the cards at a showdown, then this would be correct(which is one reason this strategy wouldn't be terrible from OOP). But, there is a HUGE advantage in playing pots in position and it is limiting to only 3bet or fold.

As the most general rule it takes a stronger hand to call a raise while you can raise pre with much worse hands . Don't be flatting raises OOP with easily dominated hands classic example is basically any broadway hand with a Jx in it that isn't JJ. If you are going to get speculative do it in position, oh did I mention play in position?

In order to call raises with non top five hands I need:

#1) To have a firm grasp on villain's ability/competency level
#2) To have a good read on villain's preflop and post flop tendencies
#3) To be able to effectively range villain based on #1 and #2
#4) To have a decent feel for how villain sees me, i.e. my perceived image
#5) To have the correct odds (both direct and implied)
#6) To preferably have position

If our strategy is nothing more than to call the preflop raise and hope to get lucky and flop gin... then that is a longterm losing -EV strategy. Also, if our strategy is nothing more than putting villain on "AK" and only "AK" and then stacking off on non AK boards then that is likewise a losing -EV strategy.

No no and no. You are butchering basic poker concepts.

For the sake of simplicity, lets say Mr. Nit raises $15 in a 1/2nl game, eff stacks $250. Mr. Nit's raising range is exclusively AA/KK/AK. Mr. Nit will also stack off post flop with an overpair or TPTK

We are on the BTN with 44, is a call +EV?

Absolutely, we have odds to set mine and villain is exactly the type to pay us off if we hit.

But if a call is +EV then according to you a raise should be more +EV?

No.

IN this case, if we raise we decimate our implied odds making it unprofitable to set mine, not to mention the fact we reopen up the betting and V can re-raise us making our call even more unprofitable.

call a raise with low pps to set mine
call a raise with aq/ak if 3! seems less profitable against that villain (they play ax but fold it to raise)
call with suited broadways
if its gonna be multiway as not too expensive, call axs

you really need to see what type of player is raising to begin with. If he is a nit, I am folding everything but premiums. If he always raises with a wide range and he's mid to late position, I'm 3betting him with a polarized range even out of the blinds.

I really hate to flat raises and very very rarely do it unless certain criteria is met such as:

you have a set mine hand and there are a number of callers before you
you have a hand that plays well multi way and there are callers before you (suited connecters, etc.)
you are a good creative player and can steal the pot away from him post flop

Intriguing conversation, impossible to give a simple response. We use math a lot and throw around fancy terms but it is also important to have good instincts.

To tell you exactly when to call pre-flop would be a fools errand. How is the table playing out? Who is the raiser? (Is he LAG, TAG, Nit, etc.) What is your position? For me, table position is crucial and understanding my starting range.

That being said, 9 person table, I get dealt 10h8h in 1/2 NL. UTG raises to 11, 2 people call, I am UTG +3, of course I am calling with button and the blinds behind me. I am getting 5-6:1. With everything being constant except for the fact that no one calls, I fold that hand.

There are just so many outside variables you need to have a good grasp of and unfortunately saying I will only call XY in this specific scenario is a losing proposition. You need to adapt, know your audience and trust your instincts. Do that and you will be fine...

One of the biggest if not the biggest leaks of live players. Close this thread now lol.
Also the above post example with T8s, stack size of the utg raiser matters so much, as does the propensity of players behind to squeeze. I will say however that if you are calling here with T8s always, you are leaking $ if you arent bluffing/semibluffing postflop some of the time.

I certainly agree. I was just trying to give an example of how calling pre-flop isn't black or white.

For the beginner or breakeven player calling preflop should be black or white.

One of the biggest leaks of beginners and breakeven players is their insistent use of their "gut". Truth be told, they just aren't advanced enough to have anywhere near a reliable gut.

For 80% of LLSNL players, they would be much better served playing ABC paint-by-numbers black and white poker.

Or put another way. If you have to ask this question, then you are definitely not at the point where you can use your intuition and gut to decide when to call with marginal hands preflop or not.

If your preflop calls are nothing more than hoping to flop/turn gin then that is not all that profitable longterm and/or you and villain need to be 200bb deep and villain needs to be a stack off monkey that will pay you off when you bink...

Basically, point of my rant is that for most players, they can and should outline the EXACT criteria for which they call preflop instead of relying on a magical gut or intuition.

I gave a list of criteria that should be helpful, when you can answer each question on my list, then you should know whether or not to call preflop. If you can't, then you need a top 6 hand to call, otherwise simply fold.

The biggest black and white indicator of whether we should be calling preflop are effective stack sizes. That is the BIGGEST leak LLSNL players make. Hero is sitting at 150bb with T8 in LP and limps, Villain on the BTN raises 7bb, one player (at 50bb) calls from EP, and Hero decides to call without really noticing that the BTN is only 60bb deep and that both villains are fairly short meaning Hero's longterm profitability in this spot is -EV since when he binks his hand he doesn't make up for all the times he whiffs or worse, gets sucked into the flop only to whiff turn and river...

anyways, just sayin, it really should be black and white for most players...

I do not disagree with anything you said in your first post. The six questions you pointed out in an earlier post is exactly that, gray area. We all have different reads, different comfort levels with trusting our gut, different levels of success and failure and different experiences we can draw from.

If I am teaching a beginner how to play Hold em, limit or no-limit, lesson 1 is position play and to truly define that. Having a good understanding of valuing hands in relation to the button is one of the more simpler lessons to teach.

Years ago, I used to take a deck of cards and a dealer button. It would move around the floor and i would deal out 9 hands and just practice with the position of the table for each dealt hand. I found this to be a very useful exercise and is something that I am glad I did when I had 15-20 minutes to kill before heading to the local game.

Getting into the Math could be secondary. Pot odds, ev, are all incredibly important terms but without understanding why you call with KJo on the button and not in early position is teaching a 400 level class without the 101 class.

I also do not necessarily argue with the concept of fold more often than not when you are a beginner and someone raises but when that becomes too predictable, you are setting yourself up for a bad table image and starting with a disadvantage. It is just hard for me to recommend playing like that when on these forums, those type of players are the ones we salivate over when they sit at our table.

Interesting topic and i am enjoying the debate.

Fwiw i use mathematics/implied odds as my staple guideline to determine whether or not i should make a speculative call preflop. I have some very hard set rules that i use, and if i ever "bend" the rule i know that i have to make up for it by semibluffing or bluffing in good situations.
Obv a few other factors can go into it, harris' guidelines are pretty good.

Im probably a bit more strict about what hands i call with preflop than harris though haha

I'd ordinarily lock this type of thread, but dgiharris is posting gold so I'll let it carry on until he stops posting.

For me, the question really comes down to this: If I miss the flop, under what circumstances can I win this pot? If you can't answer that question, you need to fold. You have to have a huge advantage on the table to be able to call T8o in the UTG+3 and expect to be +EV. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it is pretty unlikely.