Just a general question on what do you guys look for when debating a call on any street with 2nd pair mediocre-top kicker? Mainly in 1/2-2/5 live NL games? I know this can be villain dependent but just looking for general things. Obviously it's better IP or with draws but what about with no real draw?

Ex. Limped otb with 78s flop is 28Jr. 3 players including BB. MP donks a PSB. Or any other scenario where 2nd pair isn't clearly behind.

I ask because I know I folded the best hand in at least 3 pots the last game and have also been on a downswing so I'm wondering it I've gotten too nitty post flop due to recent losses. Thanks for all comments.

Folding isnt a terrible play. Play stronger hands pre flop to prevent tough decisions. If youre otb then there isnt anything else you can do, and if its a limp pot then it isnt worth trying to figure out if MP is bluffing or ahead. Fold the hand, play bigger pots with stronger hands

Sent from my SPH-D710 using 2+2 Forums

Raise on the button and take initiative

I personally like to float a lot of flops since cbets are becoming so standard and turns often get checked around. Mid pair is good with some backdoor draws

Where its an orphan pot and nobody raised pre I would for sure float if not raise it from the button. Lead outs like this are often weak

However, if you are not comfy playing the later streets I would suggest folding until you become more attune to it


My 2cents

this is really too general of a question but I'll give a standard answer - just depends on your opponent's hand ranges and good old fashioned reads. Some players I play against will never ever bet a board like A J 4 w/out an A (or 2 pair or set), others bet ATC otf no matter what they have. Let's say I have KJ, I'm folding to a bet from the former and calling and maybe raising a bet vs. the latter.

like shipcity101 said sounds like you may be playing too many weaker hands against multiple players. either raise those hands (like in your example that's a raise otb if you're going to play it) to get to heads-up or no more than 2 callers or tighten your range until you feel like your playing "correctly" again.

I don't really play many weak hands compared to villains and when I do it's in position. My understanding was that mid SCs play best multiway but maybe I should be raising more and limping less. I have noticed that I seem to leak chips the more I limp though so it makes sense. Thanks for the responses.

First, multi-way = no most of the time.

When heads up, I float many flops with mediocre holdings. I generally don't take over when villain checks the turn though. Either let him barrel a brick river, when you have a pair, or raise the river when you have nothing and a nice scare card comes (bottom or middle card pairs, draw hits, etc.)

Also, I may peel a flop with not-much when I have a read on villain who will double or triple barrel with AX unimproved, but will check for pot control with a pair or PP. Especially if I know, or reasonably believe, his bet sizing is going to suck.

^^^good post for what I was looking for.

Are people really saying that 87s on the button vs multiple people is a leak? Wowzers...

It's not like he played J4s (And even then I raise limpers from the button)

His problem is playing these hands without INITIATIVE. You should honestly be raising your ENTIRE range from the button against limpers. Punish them!

HOWEVER...If you are going to overlimp from the button and fold mid pair with backdoor draws to a weak donk lead then give up poker. You overlimped to keep the pot small so you COULD call a relatively small cbet and float in position

Again it really does come down to ranges...but a generic 1-2/2-5 table? As played I at least call this flop bet. Especially if you have 3 to the flush along with some backdoor gutshots, 2 pairs etc



My 2cents

Its always going to be multi way in a limped pot. If there has been a raise and you called from the button the above is good advice. BUT where this pot is limped it is up for grabs, multi way or not

My comment was that post-flop, when you miss and have essentially no draw (back-door draws are not draws), and it is mulit-way, then you should just give up and let the morons battle it out.

Preflop is certainly fine to play multiway from in position.

I was just giving a general example of a hand not a specific one I played. This got moved from the theory thread so sorry for any confusion. Maybe a better example would be calling a raise otb for $15 in a 2/5 live game with QJs and the flop comes AQ6r. I would usually call here but fold to turn bets without improvement.

I do take away from this that I should be raising or folding with less limping IP.

Well... I suppose you don't really want to get into the minutia of a hypothetical, but...

$15 would be a pretty small raise in the 2/5NL games I'm familiar with. So I'd actually assume pairing the Q would be pretty good, in your example. I'd probably raise/fold the flop, assuming we're HU.