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Old 04-18-2018, 07:41 AM   #1
sam7595
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Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

My local $3-5 game has a $500 capped buy-in. I've been playing poker for about 10 years, the first 5 recreationally, but for the past 3 years I'been supplementing my income consistently to the tune of about $1k/month (about $25-30/hr, which is about the same as I make in my job) playing 2 nights a week and limiting my sessions to around 4-5 hours/session, as this is about as long as I can play my best game. I keep a 30 buy-in bankroll of $15k, but generally don't put more than two into play on a given night.

I had been playing for about 3 hours and had just gotten back to even after being down about $200 when this hand comes up:

7-handed: S1-SB [~$400], S2-BB [~$600], S3-$10 straddle [$~1k], S4-fold, S5(ME)-raise to $35 with A-K [~$500], S6(V1)-reraise to $120 [$700], S7-folds [$600], and it folds back around to me.

Here's my run down of the line up:
S1 is pretty ABC but a little weak-tight; S2 isn't too much different. S3 is the action, he straddles every time he can and tonight he's running a little lucky. S4 is unknown as he just sat in for a minimum buy. S6 is a local regular and I see him book more wins than losses, but he plays a little loose aggressive. S7 is my main focus.

If I call, I've commited a quarter of my stack and the pot has ballooned to $258 PF. I will need to hit the flop and will have to play the remainder of the hand OOP. Unless I smash the flop, I will most likely check with the intent to call, but also realize that V1's c-bet of half-pot or more will get me relatively pot committed, minus a bad turn (say, one card straight or flush). If I out-flop him, I probably don't win a whole lot more, maybe a c-bet of 1/3 pot at best? I hadn't thought much further, becuase I'd need to see the actual flop.

I feel like I do not have a big enough stack to re-raise and have enough left post-flop to dissuade him from not just about auto-calling, nor do I get him to lay down 88 or 99 which is the absolute lowest part of his three-bet range. I don't like a PF shove here either because I pretty much have his range narrowed to AQs to TT+ (see previous assessment). V1 is ahead of me with most of his range; I'm coin flipping or seriously behind. AQ is the only hand I'm leading. There's a slight chance he's making a move, but I don't get a 'read' that's he's three-betting light and it would take a near all-in PF shove to find out. This gets me $173 if I'm right and even money if I'm wrong, if I'm not already dominated.

I decide to fold, for a couple of reasons: 1) I'm only losing $35 (7% of my stack) and can try for a better spot or at least a lesser PF-sized raise and/or pot-size and 2) This is based partially on my read of V1 also just slightly due my having just gotten unstuck - I know this is emotional and not empirical, but occasionally I go this way.

I know I'm folding, but still 'Hollywood' it a little for about 30 secs, just for image protection/preservation - I think my image is tight, maybe even a little nitty. I'm not one who has to show the 'sick folds' nor do I want to give my opponents any free info.

I'm good with my decision, but just wanted to see if others see it differently or think it's too weak?

Last edited by sam7595; 04-18-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:13 AM   #2
ChrisV
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

The answer is "no" just from the title alone. I guess there are times it could make sense to do it if you're really deep.

OK, I've now read it. This is a really trivial shove. Getting it allin preflop against { AQs, TT+ } is -$29 in EV. That's pretty close to your worst case scenario. You don't have to take down $173 very often to make up for this. He'll have some random light threebets in there and stacking off with a hand like TT is not exactly easy for him. There's also a metagame aspect here, like if you knew for a fact that shoving vs folding was the exact same EV, you should shove because you want to discourage this guy from threebetting you.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:21 AM   #3
BackDoorFlush
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Shove or fold. Calling is by far the worst option.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:34 AM   #4
QuadJ
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

You are right that stake sizes and position make calling out of the question.

Given the situation it's debatable if shoving or folding is better. He doesn't need to have many light raises in his range before the times you take it down preflop will pay for the times he calls. But if you have played him before you should have some read that makes your decision better then guess work.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:18 AM   #5
Playbig2000
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Never flatting. If you think he's not only 3betting premium hands, jam. If you think he only 3bets KK+, fold.

You said he's a reg who you've seen win more than lose. The question is how often does he 3bet and what is his 3bet range? If there are hands like AJo and KQs in his range, jam.

Posting tip: no need to include seat numbers. In place of seat numbers, and more important are the positions of the villains. I'm assuming V1 is in the CO.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:48 AM   #6
snowman
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

unless V's been out of line
easy fold
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:06 AM   #7
shorn7
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

I would need more info on V before making a decision (and it is shove or fold...calling is awful).

So the answer is it depends...sometimes shoving is auto, other times folding is auto.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:19 AM   #8
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Ship.

Thread was a little wordy.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #9
BornToPun
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Given description of villain as "a little loose aggressive" this is a clear shove IMO.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #10
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

If this V is a competent player who is aggressive preflop, I'm sticking it in, especially if you think V thinks you're nitty
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:08 PM   #11
sam7595
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
Never flatting. If you think he's not only 3betting premium hands, jam. If you think he only 3bets KK+, fold.

You said he's a reg who you've seen win more than lose. The question is how often does he 3bet and what is his 3bet range? If there are hands like AJo and KQs in his range, jam.

Posting tip: no need to include seat numbers. In place of seat numbers, and more important are the positions of the villains. I'm assuming V1 is in the CO.
He doesn't limp very often, most of the time coming in for a raise especially if he's first to open. His two-bet range is wider: sometimes I've seen him show down as light as 66 and 67s, but these have been after 2-3 ppl have limped in in front of him.

In a non-straddle pot, I've seen three-bet include the hands you've referenced, but this is often to say 10-15BBs after an initial raise of 3-5BBs. I've seen him three-bet some other straddled pots, but no a lot of showdowns so I can't definitively pin down his range.

We don't have a lot of metagame, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of me as much as I'm aware of him. I don't look to target him, but I don't back down if we're in a hand.

I'm not sure if it's significant to note, but he doesn't sit with anything less than 60BBs and almost always tops back off to 100BBs.

Lastly, I was hoping to change seats to something behind V1 and my target who was in the next seat to gain position, but the two seats to my right were the only ones open and no one moved.

Despite the presence of a distinctly weak player, the action player was running better than average and the rest of the line-up wasn't especially soft either. I played a few more orbits and booked a very modest win of $60 for about 4 hrs play (3BB/hr). Below average but still a win - game will always be there another day.
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:21 PM   #12
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by sam7595 View Post
In a non-straddle pot, I've seen three-bet include the hands you've referenced
This is enough to say his range is not nutted and we can 4bet jam.
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:24 PM   #13
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by sam7595 View Post
played a few more orbits and booked a very modest win of $60 for about 4 hrs play (3BB/hr). Below average but still a win - game will always be there another day.
Contrats!
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:33 PM   #14
sam7595
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
The answer is "no" just from the title alone. I guess there are times it could make sense to do it if you're really deep.

OK, I've now read it. This is a really trivial shove. Getting it allin preflop against { AQs, TT+ } is -$29 in EV. That's pretty close to your worst case scenario. You don't have to take down $173 very often to make up for this. He'll have some random light threebets in there and stacking off with a hand like TT is not exactly easy for him. There's also a metagame aspect here, like if you knew for a fact that shoving vs folding was the exact same EV, you should shove because you want to discourage this guy from threebetting you.
If I understand, you're saying the ~6% -EV can be equalized by his folding somewhere between 5-10% to my shove?

If I had him covered, his three-bet is ~17% of his stack can I reraise to ~$350 and get enough folds for profitability?

If he has $400-$500 do you think his three-bet range is narrower? I don't think his bet size changes because with a narrower range and smaller stack he should be expecting my money into the pot more easily, thus my expectations should be even worse/less. If I say only QQ+ or better for the 90% of the time he doesn't fold, then I'm coin-flipping one hand in five (QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs), dominated by two, even to one and give 3% to the last one.

I've come across this hand in other situations vs. other players and obviously stack sizes were different so decisions were also different. In this particular situation, given the opponent and stack sizes I really don't feel it's a bad fold, but maybe tougher to make?
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:08 PM   #15
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Folding isn't terrible, V's sizing says "let's get it in" so he probably has QQ. If you're going to put it in, I'd 4b to $290 to make it look more like you have aces and hopefully get a fold from AK/QQ/JJ. Doesn't happen often but the smaller 4b looks much stronger than jamming it in.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:18 PM   #16
sam7595
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Folding isn't terrible, V's sizing says "let's get it in" so he probably has QQ. If you're going to put it in, I'd 4b to $290 to make it look more like you have aces and hopefully get a fold from AK/QQ/JJ. Doesn't happen often but the smaller 4b looks much stronger than jamming it in.
I totally agree. But I don't see many players capable of folding QQ to a four-bet of that size. Some can away from JJ, but its still only about less than 10% of the time where as I now have ~60% of my stack in the pot, leaving me to c/c my remaining $200 for about $800 (4:1) regardless of hit or miss.

I think I'm only folding if I completely whiff, say a complete suited flop of neither of my Ace of King suits.

Either way, I'm OOP and have lost most of the control of the hand. Bad + Bad = fold in my poker 'book'.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:33 PM   #17
matzah_ball
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

Obvious shove is obvious
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:11 PM   #18
wj94
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by sam7595 View Post
I totally agree. But I don't see many players capable of folding QQ to a four-bet of that size. Some can away from JJ, but its still only about less than 10% of the time where as I now have ~60% of my stack in the pot, leaving me to c/c my remaining $200 for about $800 (4:1) regardless of hit or miss.

I think I'm only folding if I completely whiff, say a complete suited flop of neither of my Ace of King suits.

Either way, I'm OOP and have lost most of the control of the hand. Bad + Bad = fold in my poker 'book'.
If I have QQ and someone 4b to $290 instead of jamming, I'd think to myself "son of a *****..."

Not saying I'd fold, but it's definitely no longer a fist-pump when someone 4b less than their whole stack in this spot. They usually just have aces, whereas shoving says I also have JJ AK more often and wanna see all five cards.

Definitely not folding if V just calls because he can have AK too so I'd shovel it in on almost any flop if called.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:21 PM   #19
sam7595
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by matzah_ball View Post
Obvious shove is obvious
I would prefer to at least have the belief that I hold more than an even money advantage when I get my money all in, EV neutral does not excite me.

If we agree that the -$29 EV for a shove when compared to having already raised to $35 makes the shove a just about dead even offering after factoring in blinds, straddle, and the rake/drop, why do I want just be a coin flip for $500 a pop?

BTW, $18 in blinds - $6 (rake + BBJP) - $1 (toke) -$1 (server for H20 for parched throat) = $10; if fold/shove differential is 6, then $500 for 0.8% EV doesn't even cover the gas to get to casino.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:25 PM   #20
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Re: Call a three-bet from out of position with AKo?

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
The answer is "no" just from the title alone. I guess there are times it could make sense to do it if you're really deep.

OK, I've now read it. This is a really trivial shove. Getting it allin preflop against { AQs, TT+ } is -$29 in EV. That's pretty close to your worst case scenario. You don't have to take down $173 very often to make up for this. He'll have some random light threebets in there and stacking off with a hand like TT is not exactly easy for him. There's also a metagame aspect here, like if you knew for a fact that shoving vs folding was the exact same EV, you should shove because you want to discourage this guy from threebetting you.


This is a situation why you have a bankroll right ? Call and go with a read I would check fold
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