Blinds 1-2. In the biggest gambling private game in the city. Everyone is really deep and is about 4am in the morning.

Hero(CO) 2000: Solid LAG player. 26 years reg. I'm trying to really tighten up my game since this game is really loose and splashy
Villain (MP) 2600: The definition of a whale. Likes to gamble. Calls all in of 100bb pre flop with 10-8 off type of hands. Likes to chase down inside straight draws, call with middle pair to look for the bad beat... you get the idea.Shoves with any draw. He usually loses between 3-6k in blinds 1-2. He rebuys 500 each times he loses. Right now he is 4k in.

OTH
Villain raises to 25 on middle position. I know is a lot for the blinds we are playing, but this is the standard raise for this guy. I look down at TT and raise to 140. Everyone folds and villain calls instantly. Villain will call with his whole range and 3-bet me with overpair.

Flop:
743

Villain bets out 200. This villain in particular would bet out with 7x, 4x, 3x. I believe he would check most 2 pairs and sets, but this guy is really unpredictable. Hero thinks for a while and raises to 470. Villain instantly goes all in.

Hero?

Note: One thing to think about this particular villain is that when you play against him you have to be prepared to play for your whole stack. If somewhat we get to the river and the board is for example 743J9 he would anyway go all in for a bluff or value with 2 pair. You never know against him

Why would you raise the flop if you don't want to play a huge pot? You obviously built your stack up against him all night so you know you are (probably) ahead but vulnerable.

I don't go broke here this late, this deep, but if you're looking for a personal record night feel free to call. Don't be pissed when he outdraws you or has JJ.

What do you suppose he thinks your pre-flop flatting range is at 4am in the morning? Presumably you've been playing with him for 5 hours at this point.

Based on reads think we have to call it off. If you are worried about playing a high variance spot like this then I would say do not raise flop. Sizing is also quite small, if we are raising for value I think this needs to be bigger (270 more to win with around 600 dead in the middle).

Not sure what Spanishmoon's point is about flatting range at 4am when we are aggressor in this spot.

If villain is doing this with 88/99/76/75/46/45 then we have to call it off otherwise we are just setting money on fire. If you are not happy with the variance in this spot then flat flop and evaluate turns/rivers.

why did you raise the flop? were you hoping that he was just going to call?

As played, flip a coin.

+1

Only thing I would add is that from description (and maybe I'm reading to much into it) it sounds like V chases his gutshots instead of bluffing over top with them. The only real draw on this board is 25... Also it sounded like V was more opt to turn weak 1 pair hands into bluffs on later streets after missing two pair. If this is a pattern maybe we can exploitavely fold here as V would not be coming back over the top on early streets with his second tier draws and weak 1 pair hands and should only have value.

Flattings tens against a villain like this deep preflop.

You can literally only flop a set. Save threebeting with 10s when you're 100bbs or below.

I don't even 3! jacks or queens against this type villain when deep.

You have to totally change your game when you're 1000bb's deep and the table covers. Pocket pairs go down in value significantly.

As played I have no words or advice. You set yourself up for this.

Just be patient against these types of players, wait until you have the nuts POST flop and start putting money in since they are never folding anyway.

I'm sorry; yes, I meant to say "raising range". V has observed H all night and doesn't slow down OTF even after H levels himself preflop to big pairs or AKs. I agree with your point about not raising pre-flop if H is not ready to GII on this board texture.

But AP, if H flats V's flop bet, knowing he will likely face more turn V aggression, what's his plan? I'm not sure there's much to evaluate here because a passive x/c/evaluate line turns H's hand into a bluff catcher on final two streets wherein H is 42% to see one overcard come, possibly hitting the V maniac with his wide range.

H's pot Equity and possibly his FE is at its peak (the quantity of which is open to debate) on the flop against V's range (admittedly wide). So I think it's shove or fold after V's flop lead, but not a flat. Since H levels himself with his pre-flop raise, the information content of V's lead is significant. AP, I can find an easy fold against V's shove after H levels himself even more with raise.

I had a nearly identical situation a few months ago at Mohegan Sun after re-raising preflop with TT and I followed your recommended line instead of shoving the flop. Similar V showed me QQ on SD after my turn, river x/c on a similar flop board to OP's. Perhaps I might have gotten a fold with a postflop shove given my nitty image that day. But more to your point, I damn sure learned not to raise TT preflop this way against this type of V.

facepalm.jpg

You already decided to play for stacks when you 3b a huge amount pre and raised the flop. I wouldn’t have played the hand this way but now that you’re here I don’t see how you can fold given V description

fold pre
I like the smooth call thought and strategy.
played in a game at the rivers in upstate NY that was similar and a few thinking players employed that strategy most successfully.
"we weren't play together but we weren't plaing against each other either...."

3b pre is terrible. Flop raise is even worse. Don't click so many buttons this deep.

Yeah, I think you've kind of committed yourself here. Don't love it. Would have went more for pot control myself but whatever. Really, when you raised the flop, what were you expecting V to do? X% flat the raise, Y% reraise and Z% fold. Clearly Z is a very small number considering V and the pot odds you laid him. X + Y is probably 90+% here so you're committing to playing for stacks. Against this super aggro spewy V I guess you have to call it off.

Thanks for clarity and understand the points you have made.

I think one area of information missing is whether Villain has 4bet much when 3 bet? We see that he has called 100bbs pre with T8o trying to bust but do we know if he is likely to 4bet with AA-JJ or flat? That would give more information to decide whether we need to include better 1 pair hands in this spot.

Even if we flat flop it’s not like we can pot control. Against two normal sized bets on the next two streets we are going to end up playing for stacks on the river anyway. It’s the nature of villain that puts us in this spot more so than the raise.

Hard to know if this is a call or fold without being there and watching villain play. Probably a call but I don’t know. Maybe I talk myself into a fold since this is the worst hand I would ever raise on the flop and it’s more vulnerable than an overpair like QQ-AA.

If we give him a preflop range like a typical button open range if we lose here at this SPR it’s just a cooler. We really aren’t deep after the absurd preflop sizings. So yea I probably call off here.

Don’t 3 bet pre if you aren’t comfortable calling off here.

This made me think about the times I played against this type of player (which is <1% of the time )
You're a fav against his range (TT-33,A7-A2,X7,65,54,43s) and you need <40%.
It's understandable that you're concerned about your stack, but then you should play differently pf & otf.
You know what you'd do if this was a 1/2cent game and losing would cost you 20$ .

bigger flop and call is perfectly fine
pre is fine as well

AA/KK flat, QQ-TT raise , prob 99/88 too

I remember a post about a year before against this villain when the villain raised to 20, I 3 bet to 80 and everyone in the forum started critizing me that I should go bigger in every street for value since he will call me off anyway in most boards https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...68/?highlight=

Do you guys agree that the 3bet pre should be somewhat smaller for pot control? And on the flop the raise is unnecesary?

I've only seen him 4bet with overpairs. He likes to raise the flop with most draws (flush, pair and flush, straight) also he raises the flop with any made hand. But he just calls off every street with gutshots or any pair (even with odds against him) trying to break off the oponent. I've been playing with this villain for about 2 years now and you should be able to handle the swings... he has bad beat a couple of times, but that's poker

He could also have 75,76,45,46,35,36 that would be a pair with a gutter. But if we just call on the flop, overcards come and he goes all in... it will be really difficult for me to find a call

Your description didn't make it clear that V would be this aggressive with pair plus gut shot. I assumed a "draw" meant 8+ outs (straight. flush, or combo). If he's also bombing pair + gutshot then I don't see how you can fold. If he's instead calling with those weaker hands to try and bad beat you then you can more easily put him on 2 pair+ based on his line.

Preflop is fine given this game revolves around this whale.

Flop, I like your decision to 3-bet rather than call, although I don't like the decision to effectively minraise. Keep it simple and make it 600, sets up a nice 1260 into 1480 shove on safe turns. By calling you really just let him take control of the hand, say the turn is a 6, a 5, board pair, overcard, any of it can hit him, and seemingly he is going to continue firing. Just take the initiative away from him and GII on a non 6 or 5 turn imo, or snap call if he 3-bet shoves on the flop. If the game is too deep for you and the amount of money affects this decision, then it's time to leave.

Another thing, you should always know what your next action is going to be if you raise in any spot. So when you decided to raise on the flop, you should've already known whether you were going to raise/fold or raise/call.

Ditto. This. Exactly.

I have played in these games if you are talking about NYC. You just have to ride the variance train. At this point, you are all aboard.

This (bolded part). I think you played the hand fine though, not sure about the sizing OTF. If you play with these types be prepared for the variance train. You said it yourself!

LOL I swear didnt even read the post above before typing