1/3 underground game. Game is your standard wild underground game, with people pouring in money early and playing much more straightforwardly as pots get large.

Cast of characters:

Tanya (SB) - $400 - a pretty solid TAG who used to play a lot online. She's the only other person here who has a clue.

Ken (UTG+2) - $180 - tight but optimistic. If he flops a piece he will usually go with it unless the board is super scary.

Hero (CO) - covers - Lots of raising and cbetting, but probably playing fewer hands than everyone else.

Preflop

One limp to Ken who makes it $20. Folds to Hero, who looks down at KK. Hero flats.

If you're thinking "LOL, habileaux, you should 3bet", I agree, and would 3bet 90% of the time in this spot. But I had just won a largish pot off of Ken when I had 3bet him in position with premiums, so I thought he might fold a lot in that spot. Plus, with his stack size I thought I could almost always get it in later. Also, I was feeling experimental

BTN folds, Tanya calls in SB, BB calls, limper calls. We are 5 ways to the flop.

Flop

K23

Checks to Ken who bets $40. Hero flats. Tanya calls in SB. Two folds, and we're three ways to the turn.

[B]Turn{/B]

A

Tanya checks, Ken checks, Hero bets $75 (too small?). Tanya calls; Ken folds. HU to the river.

River

5

Tanya leads out $100. She has $165 behind. Does Hero call or shove?

call she's not folding either way but she lead out with a value bet on a 4 straight board if folding is out of the question.

bet more on the turn like 135

As played, call. She could have anything with the way this hand has played. 44, 45, 46, 34, 24, A4 are certainly in her range preflop and on the flop.

The sizing seems like a blocking bet with 2 pair or a weaker hand or maybe she knows you will call with your entire range for $100????

As for how you played the hand, you should 3 bet preflop. I understand that Ken might fold but, it is so hard to play this hand 5 ways. You need to thin the field.

The flop. I am okay with a flat heads up but 3 handed, we need to pump money into the pot.

If we have inflated the pot properly, the turn is an easy shove for the remainder of our stack.

This way we make no mistakes and make a ton more profit, even if we lose Ken preflop.

Preflop I don't mind flatting the $20 occasionally if you don't expect to get a bunch of callers. When you do flat this preflop and end up 5 ways to the flop need to either lead flop or check/raise flop. Your hand is disguised and you need to avoid giving anybody with a low straight draw cheap cards. The flop bet is $40 into $100, more probing then value. Then you bet turn for $75 into $220. Your bet needs to be more then half the pot, something like $130.

As played, call river. Your hand is too good to give up after the weak betting, but don't be surprised if she has a straight a lot.

A tight player from early position raised 1/9 of his stack and a solid tag with a clue called a 10x raise from the small blind. How many 4s do we expect her to have in that calling range preflop? 44 could be OK since the two of you are deep but if she is calling with anything else is she really a solid tag with a clue?

And does 44 get to this river?

I would be expecting to see AK here more often than 4s.If she really has a clue this could have been her betting a busted nut flush draw hoping the 5 scared you into folding.

theres no FD

this could be 45s, the only valid 4 possibility (she should have folded pre but she got there)

I don't see 4s here either unless it is the 45, especially when you say she is competent. She has two pair like AK or worse, a smaller set, or maybe it is the 45. If she got there with the 4, it was on the turn and not the river for sure. I am just calling here, because even if we raise, is she calling with a worse 2 pair then AK or even calling with that with the straight getting there? I would've definitely liked to see a bigger bet into that sized pot on the turn. I don't absolutely hate the flat on the flop, I am not to scared of many cards on the turn, and it still keeps my hand hidden. I don't mind the flat pre, as long as its not ALL THE TIME, but once it goes to the flop 5 handed, I am HATING it haha

Agreed, going 5 ways to the flop is not an ideal outcome, but I thought Tanya and the BB would fold a lot for a 7x open. I'm not sure about raising flop since there are almost no strong hands for anyone to pay me with, but I agree with everyone who says I should have bet bigger on the turn. I could have made it like 150+ since lots of Tanya's gutshot-type hands have aces in them, and she might not fold now that she has turned top pair.

I will post results in a bit, but I just want to point out that if she is showing up here with a hand containing a 4, it means she's playing three streets with a pretty speculative hand. If she's doing that, then she probably would have done the same if you replaced the 4 in her hand with a 5. This means if we think she could have a 4, then we should also think she could have lots of 2pair and worse sets that might bet for value.

I think river is an easy shove. Villan obviously likes her hand enough to call the extra $65. I am not scared of the runner runner straight. We have the near nuts and beat so many 2 pair combos and sets.

As you describe Ken, sounds like he would call half pot or more on the turn, so you should have bet bigger.

A river call is the standard without more info. If you and Tanya have a dynamic where she might be betting two pair on the river for value and would be willing to looking you up because you shouldn't ever have any 4s, then shove. Seems like you don't have enough history for that though.

Results:

Wish you didn't post results so soon.

I'll look after I post.

How can you not shove the river? What 4s's are in Tanya's range?

44 might peel the flop (but probably not) I can't see it going past the turn - the turned gut shot is not enough. A4 is a really optimistic flop call and super unlikely imo.

A2 and A3 are definitely possible.

Definitely shoving for value.

45 HAS to be in her range, but I don't see other 4s being in her range at all, not even 44 since you two aren't heads up on the flop. I don't see her peeling 44. So she has 45, or you got the best hand. So I think I shove to because you beat everything else obv. If she has 45, so be it I guess.

Wow, yeah, I definitely have the same sense about it that you do.

She could certainly have some A4, as well.

A4 is 12 combos. A2, A3 + A5 is 27. So that's one thing.

But she's probably only playing those weak Ax when they're suited oop.

So A4 is 3 combos. A2, A3 + A5 = 6 combos.

It's also very possible she called A5hh because it included the backdoor hearts. I really think she won't peel the flop without the backdoor draw to go with the gut shot.

So that really doesn't leave us with many combos.

Either way, I still think your shove is fine. It's +EV vs. the Ax hands (A2hh, A2ss, A3dd, A3ss, A5hh, A5dd = 6 combos vs A4hh, A4dd, A4ss = 3 combos, so you're a 2:1 favorite vs. those very hands). She can also show up with unexpected set combos, etc.

There really shouldn't be many 4x in her range (maybe the A4hh, A4dd, A4ss make sense, but that's really it... 44 doesn't make it past the flop/turn, and there really isn't much other 4x in her pre-flop range, certainly none that gets past the flop imo).

I mean, 54o is definitely not in a good TAGs pre-flop range oop here.

And really 54s should not be in her range, either.

If it is in her range, it's 3 combos. If we really want to say "it's possible," well OK, but I'd have to discount those combos to 1, and I would count it as 0 in-game.

Tanya is a pretty solid TAG who has a clue.

Ken raised to 20 (6.6BB and > 10% of his stack), and Tanya called oop.

I think her range pre-flop includes very few 4's.

I almost never expect to see
- 54o
- 64o
- 64s
- 43o
- 43s
- 42o
- 42s
- A4o

I rarely expect to see
- 54s (just slightly prettier than 43s, but still shouldn't be there)

I would expect to sometimes see
- 44 (but it doesn't get past turn imo)
- A4s (still not a certainty)

Do you have a light 3 bet range?

If ken folds to 3 bets because you just took a chunk of his stack, you should be adjusting by light 3 betting, not calling with KK.

Call.

Why can't I do both?

If we knew we would go to the flop HU or 3way at worse, then I don't hate the idea of flatting. But with 3 players at a super loose table still to act after us plus the limper, I think I just play it straightforward here and 3bet. Our result of going 5way to the flop sucks balls, imo, and yet it is one we should have fully expected.

I'm ok with the flat on the flop on this dry board. Yes, there's a gutshot straight draw, but I'm not too worried about that. Plus we're in position and can easily get in stacks on later streets.

I would bet an amount on the turn that enables stacks to easily be played for by the river. There's $220 in the pot; Tanya has $340 left and Ken has $120 left. I would probably just put Ken all-in at $120; if Tanya calls instead that leaves about a 1/2 PSB for the river.

Gross river, but I can't for the life of me figure out how Tanya can possibly have a 4 in her hand. But I also don't see her calling a raise. So I probably sigh call expecting to be good a large amount of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG

This is exactly why you can't flat KK in this spot. It's not because of the dynamic between you and the raiser, it's because your call of his raise invites a cascade of callers in behind you with implied odds and better position. You *must* 3-bet preflop for this reason alone.

Again, this is a must-raise spot. You have a set in a multi-way pot and there are potential draws out there.

Crying call.

Guys, I'm not inviting callers in behind me with better position; if anything I'm mostly inviting callers with worse position, since I'm in CO. But I expected Tanya and the BB to be pretty tight OOP. Sure, it sucks that it went five ways, but let's not be results-oriented here. I really feel that if you're arguing that this spot is a mandatory 3bet, then you're in effect arguing that you can never flat preflop with a premium hand, since there aren't too many better spots than this in which to do it.

I also disagree that I should raise this flop. It's so difficult for anyone to have a strong hand, and there are very few dangerous turn cards.

The game is described as wild and people pouring in money on early streets, so I don't think it is unreasonable to think the this will go multiway once we call preflop.

I agree that there is no reason to raise the flop.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So they proved to you a few hands ago that they're willing to call 3-bets when the shouldn't, and that made you not want to 3-bet? What?!

I could see if they folded last time, you not wanting to 3-bet, but KNOWING that they're happy to make a mistake you're not willing to allow that to happen.

As a result, if they had AK, you had one-out to get their stack, and we're still struggling to get money in the pot by the river.