I did if you bothered reading instead of being pissed that I meme'd you. The problem is that the V would view me differently from H so I can't play H's hand and expect the same result from V. The most likely result is that I raise pre and V folds.

Combating LAGs/maniacs with calls is like fighting a fire with gasoline. I cant believe the majority in here think that calling is the right play against someone who is limp/calling with 80% of the deck.

So how do we combat them? I am a pure lag. I would agree I destroy passive play in general.

89 is probably his #1 bluff OTT IMO, river is definitely not a brick.

Don't know why everyone thinks I somehow played this hand weak. What am I supposed to do, 3-bet jam OTT?

Posting a bunch of stupid **** and claiming to be a lag destroyer is whats annoying nobody cares about ur meme

In this same post you said two separate things... you don't like a flop cbet against a good lag/maniac, and you would also pot most flops. I really don't know what line you are advocating in this thread.

OK now that's a good line.

Inducing bluffs vs people who bluff too much with a super wide range is a fine strategy. Especially like the hand we have that happily calls down but doesn't feel great about playing for stacks.

When I play against guys like this, I check and let them bet into me. I'm not necessarily saying call river now (that's a soul-read), but I would have checked turn (probably flop, too) to see what he does and usually I call them down. I slows the heck out of them, keeps the pot smaller, and doesn't let me get bluffed off the best hand as often.

I don't think he's bluffing a gut-shot, but if you know him that well, folding river is a no-brainer. His number one bluff hit, and otherwise he probably wasn't bluffing.

I would have played the hand weaker See above. I love letting these guys bluff into me.

It would've turned a double gutter, which is plenty for a LAG to bluff with.

What would've you done? x/c flop? What do you do if you *don't* bink the Q on the turn?

A true LAG will bluff with almost anything if they are going to bluff and put the pressure on. Again, you know him better than we do. Another reason I'd rather check/call the turn, though.

I might c-bet, but probably just check/call flop -- it tends to slow them down sometimes. Probably fold turn if I don't bink something. Would you have bet the turn if you didn't bink? Or check/called?

You don't beat a LAG by calling down with A-high.


Depends on the turn. I'm barreling any broadway, x/folding most low cards.

"What would your line be"

I would default to double barreling PSB's against someone who plays "almost ATC" which I am going to take as V playing about 80% of hands.

Fun fact. Pretend this hand played out the same way pre against me and the board came 7x8s9s. Scary give up check/fold board right?

Auto triple barrel. 7 8 or 9 comes? Triple barrel. The flush comes in? Triple barrel. 5 6 T J comes? Uh ok I would slow down on only those cards. Punch in your little GTO snowie bullsht how many pair+straight draws or just straight draws are on a board like that with a 80% preflop calling range. They never have it and when a flush/paired board card comes and he raises and I jam it in his face and he folds and I show AKo theyve learned their place. If they haven't we just keep dancing until they start giving up on the flop vs me or default to giving me chunks of their 400bb stack theyve made off people who call and fold too much against someone who never has a hand. A lot of great players in this thread and everyone is trembling that V has the nuts! Its almost as if people play too passive and assume a moron playing every hand has the nuts every time because he bet big.

For a more simple board like the one OP has posted I would have raised to 70 pre, cbet 175 and bet 440 on the turn and called a jam.

I will also add this for Krill. Look over your reasoning for calling on the turn and then imagine each card from 2 to K peeling out on the river and put each corresponding card in the "safe card" or "bad card" category. This guy can claim almost every card in the deck against you because he knows you call too much and over fold.

From your own words "he could have a straight" so if you are scared of a straight here and he is playing almost the entire deck it means that any card between 2 and J also makes straights or trips. Q is a great card, A is a great card, the K is the only other safe card in the deck but it is an over and completes BDSDs so maybe you aren't comfortable with a K either. The turn was a bad call if you are going to give V credit for any type of hand. You shoulda jammed the turn.

As a bluff?
For value?
Merge?

Decision is OTT, not OTR.

Versus true spewmonkey call OTT/call OTR is fine, dont jam turn??? Wtf, close your eyes and c/c OTR much higher EV

If you dont want to close your eyes and call OTR, fold turn imo

Grunch

I like pre sizing. Your out of position so nudging it up a notch sounds good to me.

I also agree with a flop cbet but that is a very big sizing for a pot that's already pretty big and we hold Ahi. 60% is a lot of cheddar, he's a tricky opponent, and our hand is not that great. His fold range is probably fairly inelastic as well. I'd make it much smaller like 35%. We don't want this pot bloating up quickly.

Turn bet cool.

When villain raises... This board is just so dry and he has lots of flopped sets that waited in position to let you two barrel. I just have a hard time thinking what he turns into a bluff here. If you've seen him pulling lots of moves in spots like this go right ahead but you've shown a lot of strength and he's played this very much like a pocket pair that's hit a set. So I fold.

Well that's very different from the op which had me thinking you were playing a smart lag

I am playing the hand from his POV. If he had any question of folding to a river jam he should have just ended the hand on the turn. I am not saying this is the most EV line, I am trying to help him understand that if he is scared of a straight card (or any card for that matter) on the river he should have turn jammed instead of calling and folding river due to a scare card when 90% of the deck are scare cards.

He is a decent LAG, but probably plays a few too many hands in position/over-confident about postflop skills.

Note 80% range, closer to 50%.

Pot size was incorrect in OP. Pot is actually $180 so my $60 is exactly 1/3 pot.

This is just ridiculous/pathetic logic.

Nothing worse calls turn. Nothing better folds turn. Jamming would be idiotic and I can't believe you're a winning player with such terrible moves. You sound like scared money, wanting to make a spewy jam to avoid making tough decisions later (like guys who overbet jam AA OTF every hand). It's simply never a +EV play.

As for your claim that "half" the deck would be scare cards, it's incredibly incorrect.

A, K, Q, T, 6, 4, 2 are all fine. 3, 7, 8, and 9 were the really the only cards I thought might make his straight/2-pair and give me a decision.

Saying this hand is decided on the turn is simply ridiculous. We still have over $1.3k behind in a $1k pot. Plus, V tends to back down with his bluffs after I've shown some strength in a hand, so if he decides to continue on the river I'd have new information.

Anyways, results:

In your OP you talked about V possibly having KQ so those ranges are complete bs. Someone with a 50% preflop calling range is going to have more straight draws then just 89. I guess V is so sick he will raise with turned double gutters but won't raise with flopped double gutters/OESDs on the turn?

If he has double gutters he can have other straight draws as well, we know this based off your reads in the OP.

You call me a bad player but you're the one who thinks there are only 44 cards in the deck or you must be playing some variant of mid deck holdem where cards in the middle are taken out. Amazing how you dont mention the 5 or J here especially when you've been talking about V having 89 the entire time. How is 2 not a scare card when 53o is in a 50% calling range or are you going to add more sick reads at the end of your post?

Its also hysterical that you put V on a no pair KQ flop float but wont put him on calling flop gutshots. Your own words state V has a huge river range that on average is going to whiff way more then hit and then combine this with your reads that V is capable of big bluffs on top of a 50% preflop calling range but you still manage to claim that you folded when V magically has the nuts and call me bad when nutted hands are massively outweighed by bluffs. This insane river fold is also compounded by you saying "Also probably the only player in game capable of turning made hands into bluffs" which means you are admitting he can also be turning AT and KT into a bluff. Wow.

Amazing how you add this at the end of the thread:

You talked for 2 pages about how V is a good player who "Also probably the only player in game capable of turning made hands into bluffs and making total airball bluffs when he senses weakness". There is a PSB left, there is no more room for play. Implying that calling the turn to reevaluate when you admit yourself V can have a lot of bluffs in a spot where his only bet sizing options are 0 or 1300 is atrocious. Many people in this thread have pointed out you have to call the river if you call the turn but magically your very last post where you put me in my place contains sick new information about river tells that you never told us before and aren't even being specific about now.

And when you add in the 2 cards you magically forgot to add in to your sick river scare card range and add in the K which you said yourself in the OP he could have that makes 7 scare cards and because you dont know how many denominations of cards are in the deck I will let you know that 7 scare cards vs 6 safe cards is over half the deck. Id ask you to explain the many other contradictions that arise from your initial reads compared to your last post but I think you've lied and backpeddled enough in this thread to not need to hear anything else from you.

Why did you post this hand if you have it all figured out? I feel like you think you made a sick read and fold and want validation. Sizing is awful throughout is my only thought on it. Also b/c turn, c/f river is a terrible line. Mostly cause of the justifications for calling turn still exist when folding river but are ignored.

Because he folded the river and doesn't actually know what V had.

I hope everyone remembers how he talks to people who take time out of their lives to try and help him out. Id like his revisionist history read on why he talked to Venice the way he did.

Agreed to that.
I think it is a great spot for discussion/study, but made me sick the way OP was posting his responses and just gave up on that.
Took some really good notes, tho.

PF raise to $75 is totally fine - raise to get value, but you are also OOP with a non-made hand, so charge a premium for people to try and out draw you.

I think this is a definite check-fold on the flop. That board hits his range better than yours, and as we know he likes to get sticky, and tricky, so why even bother continuing at this point? You're OOP with only 6 outs to improve, and those outs aren't ones that you want to put your whole stack in with. Wait for a better spot.


AP I would check-call the turn even though we improved. Against maniacs we want to keep the pot small unless we have monster. Top pair isn't it.

No idea what to do on the river. The problem with this hand isn't on the river, its the flop and turn plays that put you in this horrible spot. I guess you have to call, given how loose this guy is.

The whole point of posting hands is to share analysis and evolve my understanding. I haven't lied once—I've asked for feedback and changed my understanding of the hand based on it.

FWIW, I wouldn't put K as a scare card. Yes it *could* be but honesty the more I think about it the less likely I think he is to limp something like KQ.

Maybe I should've called river. Doesn't mean 3-bet jamming the turn is a good idea—again, what does that accomplish? If you wouldn't play the hand that way, why would you suggest anyone else should? It's just insulting and encouraging me to torch money.

Because he went on a rant about "scared money" and how I should've just cashed out as soon as I had $600 when $600 is the average *buy-in* for this game. Assuming people are scared money because they don't play a 1000BB pot the same way they play a 100BB pot is insulting and disingenuous. He knows literally nothing about my financial situation but proceeded to assume I'm playing out of my depth when $2k is actually less than 1% of my roll.

What sizing would you choose for each street?

In retrospect, I agree. I should've either folded turn or called river.

How? I appreciate the analysis you and others provided. I just don't appreciate AAJTo spending more time calling me scared money than providing real analysis/lines.

I don't see a reason to completely give up on the hand for no reason, especially when he has a wide calling range. If I'm going to x/f every flop without an A or Q, I might as well not even raise pre.

FWIW, I really do appreciate everyone's analysis so far. It seems like I should've x/c turn to give V a chance to bluff at it.

I just call preflop. Really think the raise is pretty meh being this deep (the dead money in the pot when it gets to us is a fairly meaningless 1.5% of stacks) and OOP to this Villain, and might border on horrendous if we have a tight raising range from this spot (I actually probably wouldn't have a raising range in this spot, for realz, but I have a super nitty image). But I try to setup spots that I thrive in, and being OOP deep with a possibly face up range against the best player at the table ain't one of them; if that's your wheelhouse, then obviously put yourself there, but otherwise, meh. IMO.

I actually think we cbet too large on this flop. I would go about 1/3 PSB. ETA: Based that on OP's pot sizing, which looks like are off; if it was a 1/3 PSB, then I'm cool with sizing (if I'm betting, which I'm not 100% sure I am).

I guess if you're known to double/triple barrel hands then more reason to bet the turn. With my nitty image I'm checking this turn 100% of the time and looking to get to showdown, but obviously that's me and my image. I'm not in love with any bet/call plan either, especially since I doubt he's going to be letting up on the river if he's bluffing (is he?).

Obviously I don't play a lotta deepstack. But yesterday I started off a session at 8:30am where there were a bunch of all nighters and a bunch of $1000+ stacks, and while my effective depth eventually topped out at about $800, I still just played my style. And my style is not building hugely massive bloated pots OOP against dangerous players with hands that will most likely end up being one pair + good kicker. But if you're great in these spots, I guess do whatever you want.

ETA: Regarding preflop from a results oriented point of view, we got in less than 4% of stacks with our AQo (which will mostly only make one pair if it makes anything at all) OOP against a guy who has 66 (who'll always have a pair on the flop in position and 1/8 times will flop a monster), all to go after lol 1.5% of stacks worth of dead money. Raising seems to be pretty meh to me. But I seem to be off in my own little world here regarding preflop in NL, so whatever.

GcluelessNLnoobG