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C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents

09-07-2018 , 02:55 PM
Villain 1: Passive station. Calls flop bets with second pair. Beat hero out of nice pot chaseing BDF vs. hero’s AA.

Villain 2: No real reads, older Asian guy with about 130 I’m front of him. Seems passive.

OTTH
V1 limps in EP, V1 calls, Hero raises to 12in BB with AJ, two callers

Flop: 9K:J

Hero bets 25...Felt like this flop misses limp calling ranges, strong Broadway would have raised pre but vs passive villains maybe this was a mistake to assume that? I also felt V1 can call with worse Js here. Probably barreling any heart,J,A. Is this solid reasoning? Is check/calling the better play?
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-07-2018 , 03:17 PM
It's definitely a mistake to assume it misses their ranges completely. Passive players limp all sorts of decent broadway hands, some of which have you beat, others have a pretty good shot to outdraw you. That said, their preflop ranges are wide enough that we should have the best hand here a good portion of the time. Try not to think in terms of opponents "Never having" certain hands or hand types, but rather that they won't have them very often due to their ranges being extremely wide.

The decision to c-bet, however, is obviously more complicated than that. In general, a hand like this OOP falls into my checking range, but against passive opponents, you can generally get some value with a cbet, and not worry too much about getting bluffed later in the hand. Also, this board can get pretty bad for us too. I think I would bet AJ, but check QQ, the difference in them being their playability on more turns.

I wouldn't barrel heart turns, though. We will have enough showdown that we don't need to bluff (and probably can't bluff these weak players off better than AJ), and potentially getting raised off the NFD is not a good situation, either.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-07-2018 , 03:39 PM
I think the flop bet is reasonable. That's probably the only action I'd put into this pot and try to get to showdown UI after that, potentially calling a small bluff.

I think the plan to barrel a turn heart is not a good idea though. This hand should be checking a turn heart and trying to either get to showdown cheaply or get a free or cheaper draw at the flush. Barreling the turn with AT would make a lot more sense.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-07-2018 , 03:58 PM
I think its fine to cbet thin on a connected board vs a V who will peel OTF with any piece.

"Probably barreling any heart" = what about the 8h, Th, Qh? Those would be pretty awful cards to barrel since you also have the Ah.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-07-2018 , 04:31 PM
Probably shouldn't be c-betting this hand 3 ways on this board.

Pretty easy check-call...assuming this board missing their limp call range shows a real lack of understanding live poker dynamics.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-07-2018 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddycope
Probably shouldn't be c-betting this hand 3 ways on this board.
I don't mind a check, but I think this hand specifically (with the A) has low risk of being check/raised by worse and also has very little equity when behind so I like using it as a bet/fold hand on the flop. AJ without the A and QJs/JTs or KQs/KTs are much better check/call hands I think.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-08-2018 , 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger
Villain 1: Passive station. Calls flop bets with second pair.
Keep in mind that calling a flop bet with second pair is often the correct play, especially if the pot is heads-up.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-08-2018 , 11:38 AM
i mean i think poker 101 is to check 2nd pair strengthen your checking range. but its probably fine to bet.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote
09-08-2018 , 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by josofo
i mean i think poker 101 is to check 2nd pair strengthen your checking range.
I generally agree, although this specific case feels different in that:
1. We have the ace of hearts so we cut down on the number of bluff-raising hands.
2. The board is much scarier than normal boards so we can often get opponents with better hands to simply call and get to showdown cheaper with a flop bet.
3. Maybe most important: We're OOP so we can't really control the size of the pot by checking.
C-Bettign 2nd pair TK vs. 2 Opponents Quote

      
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