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Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Buying in for less question and am I betting to small?

09-14-2019 , 03:03 PM
Hello All, I would not say I was a beginner as I have playing live stacks 2/5 NL poker for over 10 years now. I for the most part average two days a week. So I had a question about my own game and one about someone else. But I would say up until about a year ago did I decide to take the game to a serious level of reading and learning more about the game as opposed to just winging it.

For my game while I have been playing over 10 years of 2/5 NL in live games I do not claim to always be a winner. I have had my good years and my bad years. I would say I average about 16 to 20 hours a week and between 850 and 950 hours a year. One thing I really wanted to do this year is study the game more then ever so before. I wanted to tighten up the holes I have stick to one style of play. So the not so surprising choice was Tight Aggressive. Now I am wondering if I am not betting enough or playing scared. Cause on most days I sit for 6 to 8 hours and on a winning day maybe take home about $200 to $400 and that is feeling like maybe its not enough. Wondering is my standard raise of $20 need to be raised to say $30 for starters? Should I at all times stay away from low pocket pairs if it will cost me $20 to see the flop? Talking anything below 9's And same question for A anything suited? Really betting all streets. I feel I play to safe.


Then for the question about the other person. Guy who plays super tight aggressive he plays 5 days per week at the 2/5 and does fairly well. Is not trying to win $2000 a day he is happy taking his $250 to $500 profit. Plays very disciplined poker. My question is the buy in max is $1000 and he always just buys in for $500. What would be the purpose of this?

Thanks in Advance.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 05:47 PM
1) this question is way too general to give a decent answer, but how big your wins are is nowhere near as important as how steadily you're winning. Generally, we talk about hourly average, not about session results.

Without knowing how your game plays, we really can't make any comments at all about opening sizes and profitability of PPs.

2) online buy one are usually 100bbs, so if he's used to that or is using training sites that assume it, he's probably just playing to his comfort zone.

Last edited by Garick; 09-14-2019 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Typo
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 06:24 PM
Ive got over 5000 hours of live 2/5 under my belt over about 4 years. When I started out, I bought in for $300. I did that for a while and did fairly well. There are different strategies for profitably playing a shorter stack. If you know what you're doing, you make good money without being deep. However, being deeper than $300 is definitely more profitable if you are a good player.

Later on I started buying in for $500 which was the max at that time where I play. I have played a starting stack of $500 for the majority of my 2/5 hours. At some point the max buy-in was raised to $1000. Ive bought in for $700-$1000 who knows how many times. Maybe 1/5 of my total sessions.

I cant see any real difference in my win rate when I buy in for $500 or $1000 or anywhere in between. When I buy in for $500 I'm often at $800+ after 30-90 minutes anyway. There's not all that many guys who buy in for $1000 where I play anyway and there certainly isn't more than an avg of maybe 1 hand per 5 hour session that I witness where 2 guys get $1000 in each during a hand.

Being deeper can be an advantage or a hindrance. Ill give 2 examples:

1) 2 guys limp. A LAG in LP raises to $20. I have a lot of history with him. I 3 bet him religiously. I make it $80 with KK SB. I have $480 total. It folds back to the LAG who jams. I call and bust his 99. If we had $1000 hes not going to jam all in preflop with 99. Who knows how the hand plays out if he just calls the $80 if we are much deeper but I doubt I make $480 from him because there's going to be overcard(s) to his 99 most of the time.

2) EP limps. Same guy raises to $15. 2 guys call. I make it $115 SB with A5s. This time I have $900 and he covers. They all folded and I took it down. After the hand he said he would've shoved it all in with his 77 if we were shallower (and I have no reason not to believe him after the first hand). Hes 4 bet jammed on me before with even smaller pps, and things like small suited aces when we were $500ish deep because he knows I 3 bet him pretty lite.

In hand #1 being shorter made me more money for sure. In hand #2 being deeper allowed me to steal the pot preflop with less worry of being jammed on and having to fold very often. There are advantages and disadvantages to being shorter or deeper. You just need to know how to play each stack depth correctly, but as I said, I havent found any noticeable win rate difference whether I start at $500 or $1000.

Some guys think having the max amount at all times is crucial, but I couldn't disagree more.

PS..open raising to $20 is fine. You don't need to make it $30 just so your bets are bigger in general.

Last edited by MikeStarr; 09-14-2019 at 06:39 PM.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
1) this question is way too general to give a decent answer, but how big your wins are is nowhere near as important as how steadily you're winning. Generally, we talk about hourly average, not about session results.

Without knowing how yourgame plays, we really can't make any comments at all about opening sizes and profitability of PPs.

2) online buy one are usually 100bbs, so if he's used to that or is using training sites that assume it, he's probably just playing to his comfort zone.

This year my win rate is $27 per hour. Not sure that is a ton of help but that is what it is
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Ive got over 5000 hours of live 2/5 under my belt over about 4 years. When I started out, I bought in for $300. I did that for a while and did fairly well. There are different strategies for profitably playing a shorter stack. If you know what you're doing, you make good money without being deep. However, being deeper than $300 is definitely more profitable if you are a good player.

Later on I started buying in for $500 which was the max at that time where I play. I have played a starting stack of $500 for the majority of my 2/5 hours. At some point the max buy-in was raised to $1000. Ive bought in for $700-$1000 who knows how many times. Maybe 1/5 of my total sessions.

I cant see any real difference in my win rate when I buy in for $500 or $1000 or anywhere in between. When I buy in for $500 I'm often at $800+ after 30-90 minutes anyway. There's not all that many guys who buy in for $1000 where I play anyway and there certainly isn't more than an avg of maybe 1 hand per 5 hour session that I witness where 2 guys get $1000 in each during a hand.

Being deeper can be an advantage or a hindrance. Ill give 2 examples:

1) 2 guys limp. A LAG in LP raises to $20. I have a lot of history with him. I 3 bet him religiously. I make it $80 with KK SB. I have $480 total. It folds back to the LAG who jams. I call and bust his 99. If we had $1000 hes not going to jam all in preflop with 99. Who knows how the hand plays out if he just calls the $80 if we are much deeper but I doubt I make $480 from him because there's going to be overcard(s) to his 99 most of the time.

2) EP limps. Same guy raises to $15. 2 guys call. I make it $115 SB with A5s. This time I have $900 and he covers. They all folded and I took it down. After the hand he said he would've shoved it all in with his 77 if we were shallower (and I have no reason not to believe him after the first hand). Hes 4 bet jammed on me before with even smaller pps, and things like small suited aces when we were $500ish deep because he knows I 3 bet him pretty lite.

In hand #1 being shorter made me more money for sure. In hand #2 being deeper allowed me to steal the pot preflop with less worry of being jammed on and having to fold very often. There are advantages and disadvantages to being shorter or deeper. You just need to know how to play each stack depth correctly, but as I said, I havent found any noticeable win rate difference whether I start at $500 or $1000.

Some guys think having the max amount at all times is crucial, but I couldn't disagree more.

PS..open raising to $20 is fine. You don't need to make it $30 just so your bets are bigger in general.
Thanks for the response. I always buy in for $900 personally. I just need to get rid of the fear I have when I raise pre flop, someone calls, then I hit the flop not kill it but hit it and bet and get a call and start to question if I am ahead.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 07:07 PM
5BBs/hr is not bad, but not crushing. Frankly, from your posts it sounds like you have some leaks in your fundamentals, but PF betsizing doesn't seem to be the problem. It's wanting too much to know where you are, so you want to raise more so that the weird hand that might have hit doesn't call pre. Don't sweat that so much. Go for value and accept that variance happens.

I'd reccommend that you read all the threads in this anthology, and post hands in this forum that you're not sure about. It would also help to post thoughts on hands other people post, as it will clarify your thinking and you'll get feedback from other posters.

Last edited by Garick; 09-14-2019 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Added link
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
5BBs/hr is not bad, but not crushing. Frankly, from your posts it sounds like you have some leaks in your fundamentals, but PF betsizing doesn't seem to be the problem. It's wanting too much to know where you are, so you want to raise more so that the weird hand that might have hit doesn't call pre. Don't sweat that so much. Go for value and accept that variance happens.

I'd reccommend that you read all the threads in this anthology, and post hands in this forum that you're not sure about. It would also help to post thoughts on hands other people post, as it will clarify your thinking and you'll get feedback from other posters.
I will do that for sure. Thank you for the feedback. Trying to really learn as much as I can to improve.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGamingCeo
Thanks for the response. I always buy in for $900 personally. I just need to get rid of the fear I have when I raise pre flop, someone calls, then I hit the flop not kill it but hit it and bet and get a call and start to question if I am ahead.
You don't need to question if you are ahead when you get called. If you play tight you will mostly be playing strong preflop hands so if you hit the flop and think you're ahead you probably are. The problem comes for TAGs when they get raised. TAGs dont play that many hands so when they hit the flop or have an over pair they sure as hell don't want to fold when they've been waiting so long for a good hand. But when you get raised, you are normally behind if you only have 1 pair and it doesn't matter how high the pair is.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 07:43 PM
it's easier to learn proper 50bb poker
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
You don't need to question if you are ahead when you get called. If you play tight you will mostly be playing strong preflop hands so if you hit the flop and think you're ahead you probably are. The problem comes for TAGs when they get raised. TAGs dont play that many hands so when they hit the flop or have an over pair they sure as hell don't want to fold when they've been waiting so long for a good hand. But when you get raised, you are normally behind if you only have 1 pair and it doesn't matter how high the pair is.
I hear ya. I usually do not have an issue walking away from a hand. I do seem to back down at times when I should not. I will be at table with other regs who you just know every time they are in late position if they see 3 or 4 go to 20 pre flop will make it $125 or so like clock work. And every time most run away. I need to really stick to my game plan when possible.
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 09:29 PM
Fixed link on the anthology post. Sorry, OP
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote
09-14-2019 , 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Fixed link on the anthology post. Sorry, OP


I did check that link but none of the links in that thread seem to work
Buying in for less question and am I betting to small? Quote

      
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