Button click-back 4 bets...is this now a thing? - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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Button click-back 4 bets...is this now a thing?

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03-21-2021 , 01:20 PM

tracktardicus

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 38

Recent Vegas trip, Wynn and Bellagio 2/5. I had two regs min-raise my OOP 3 bets on the button. They had already demonstrated opening in late position wide. Is this now a common thing? Any valid strategy/logic behind this?

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03-21-2021 , 10:27 PM

hydra564

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 82

When IP it can be okay to 4bet really small, you don’t care about giving OOP good odds because if they call they have to play OOP with a somewhat capped range against an uncapped 4bet range.
It makes more sense to 4bet small when the stacks are shallow enough that IP can easily get stacks in postflop anyway

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03-21-2021 , 10:44 PM

sixsevenoff

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 5,411

Really? So long as it's just the two of us, I don't have a 5 betting range and am thus uncapped.

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03-21-2021 , 10:55 PM

hydra564

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixsevenoff

Really? So long as it's just the two of us, I don't have a 5 betting range and am thus uncapped.

What do you mean by this? I’ve never seen a situation 100bb or deeper where you’re not supposed to have 5bets at equilibrium. I used to not have 5bets when deepstacked but I know that way of thinking is wrong now.

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03-21-2021 , 11:02 PM

sixsevenoff

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 5,411

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydra564

That's what I was taught by Slorgo on the discord server that we're both on... Maybe the thinking has changed since then

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03-22-2021 , 12:27 PM

Colombo

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,748

Even if you don't 5bet and have an uncapped calling range, you'll still be at a range disadvantage since IP's 4betting range is going to be much stronger than your 3betting range, and you'll be calling a huge percentage of your 3betting range to the 4bet given the pot odds.

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03-23-2021 , 12:42 AM

javi

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8,232

fascinating concept, sounds a bit gambooley but damn it'd suck to 3bet A5s or 66 only to get min4bet by the BTN. I'm surprised someone would take this line instead of just flatting the 3bets and floating the flop tons.

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03-23-2021 , 10:39 AM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,849

Pretty standard response of a good player if you keep defending your blinds too often. They know your range has to be weak and plan to punish you with position.

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03-23-2021 , 10:49 PM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Most players min-raising in late position play too wide a range, and hope weaker players artificially cap range by only 4! monsters.

Against these players we need to 4! wider and not play the same strategy post-flop as is villain 3! larger.

Would not expect any good pro to take this line in a 2/5.

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03-23-2021 , 11:43 PM

#10

Dream Crusher

banned

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 18,786

Maybe they just had "it"

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03-24-2021 , 04:07 AM

#11

hydra564

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 82

it also depends on the SPR and 3-bet size

large 3-bet and/or low SPR = 4-bet smaller

small 3-bet and/or high spr = 4-bet bigger

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04-07-2021 , 05:01 PM

#12

tracktardicus

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream Crusher

Maybe they just had "it"

Nope. In one instance I had only $500 to start the hand, the pot was $200, so I just shoved with AKo and he snap-folded. The other hand I called the 4 bet with 89s and against a different player. K33 flop, I was $1500 deep and it was one of the first hands in the session. I folded to a standard 1/3 pot bet, not wishing to play a big pot early against a player I knew nothing about. I can confirm after several sessions that both players in question are thinking regs in 2/5.

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04-07-2021 , 06:39 PM

#13

tracktardicus

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

Pretty standard response of a good player if you keep defending your blinds too often. They know your range has to be weak and plan to punish you with position.

I understand your point, but I had not shown overt aggressiveness from the blinds to either player.

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04-07-2021 , 09:54 PM

#14

browni3141

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 5,678

Small IP 4-bet sizes 100BB deep are pretty standard, but literal min-raises I don't think so. Being OOP you're incentivised to raise or fold, so a smaller size offers your steal a worse price, and makes you prefer to call some more hands, which IP really doesn't mind. I think a min-raise is bad as every hand in your range probably becomes a profitable call at least. Sizing should at least put the bottom-mid of your range in a tough spot.

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