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Butchered QQ at 2/5 Butchered QQ at 2/5

01-15-2019 , 03:27 PM
This happened last week so I’m a little rusty on the exact details. Should’ve made better notes but here goes.

V1 - Pro/reg 30’s white guy. Not saying he’s great but he makes his money playing poker and online and hosting PP (first I’ve herd of this app where you ply for fake money and people settle up in real life). Definitely on the tighter side but pretty even keel.

V2 - 20/30’s white guy. Quiet. Not really seen anything special out of him. Bought in for 1k.

V1 makes standard raise of 25 in MP and V2 calls directly to his left.

Hero ($600 and villains cover) calls in SB with QQ. Feel free to flame away, but I’m less than 30 hours at 2/5 and didn’t want to play a huge pot out of position with this particular hand vs this particular player. I also didn’t want to telegraph my range (lol, new tight guy rr in small blind, he has QQ+, AK).

Flop KsQs3d ($75)

I check with the intent to check raise. It checks through.

Turn 4d. I bet $65. Call call.

River ($270) 10s. I check, V1 checks, V2 bets $125.

Hero?
Butchered QQ at 2/5 Quote
01-15-2019 , 03:55 PM
I call, expect to be beat a lot.
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01-15-2019 , 04:12 PM
Snap call, he has bluffs and value you beat. Our hand is incredibly underrepped.
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01-15-2019 , 04:13 PM
Can't fold for that price, but obviously raise pre.
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01-15-2019 , 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krilleater
Snap call, he has bluffs and value you beat. Our hand is incredibly underrepped.
What exactly does he have here that is a bluff? All spade draws got there. AJ got there. JT? That's about the only hand I can imagine villain calling the turn on and then bluffing the river, and even that has SDV. There are almost no bluffs he has here that don't have SDV.
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01-15-2019 , 04:29 PM
I'm calling under the assumption that V2 would have bet his flush draw when checked to otf IP. I don't think he would have called turn with AJ.

Pre: I really don't mind just calling in SB with pairs through QQ and only 3! KK-AA, AK. Playing OOP with these "smaller" pairs is a nightmare when overcards flop at a relatively high frequency.

I can get behind a donk otf on such a wet connected board to prevent it from checking through/giving a free card.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 01-15-2019 at 04:42 PM.
Butchered QQ at 2/5 Quote
01-15-2019 , 04:48 PM
Pre is so bad. Don't care to finish hand
Butchered QQ at 2/5 Quote
01-15-2019 , 05:07 PM
While I understand why one could feel weak-tight when moving up in stakes, you are going to have a harder time winning if you avoid higher variance, +EV lines (like 3-betting out the blinds with QQ) in favor of weaker lines with less variance (e.g. playing "fit-or-fold" with premiums).

You may want to move back down to 1-2 until you feel less scared of losing.
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01-15-2019 , 05:13 PM
I don't think calling with QQ here is as bad as people are saying, although in this spot I probably also 3bet it.

What is worse is that a flop lead was not even considered.

To answer the question of what bluffs Villain can have, he can have the other flush draw, that missed.
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01-15-2019 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
While I understand why one could feel weak-tight when moving up in stakes, you are going to have a harder time winning if you avoid higher variance, +EV lines (like 3-betting out the blinds with QQ) in favor of weaker lines with less variance (e.g. playing "fit-or-fold" with premiums).

You may want to move back down to 1-2 until you feel less scared of losing.
Definitely 3-bet, but I'm not convinced 3-betting is lower variance. You'll get folds often enough. You can often fold to a 4-bet (though player and stacks dependent), you reduce the number of players, and you better define yours and your opponents hands. Flatting OOP here seems riskier in many ways.
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01-15-2019 , 05:17 PM
Easiest 115 pre in history

As played, mandatory river call
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01-15-2019 , 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
Definitely 3-bet, but I'm not convinced 3-betting is lower variance. You'll get folds often enough. You can often fold to a 4-bet (though player and stacks dependent), you reduce the number of players, and you better define yours and your opponents hands. Flatting OOP here seems riskier in many ways.
I think you misread what I wrote. I said I believe that 3-betting QQ here is higher variance, but also more profitable than calling.
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01-15-2019 , 06:15 PM
Letting flop check through is just as much of a disaster if not worse than flatting pre.
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01-15-2019 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight
Letting flop check through is just as much of a disaster if not worse than flatting pre.
Actually the only thing that would look stronger than raising pre with OP's image would be leading the flop. Going for a check raise also means that even if they cbet and fold to a checkraise we make some money.

AP turn is good, and I would probably bet the river for value. AP call.
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01-15-2019 , 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
I think you misread what I wrote. I said I believe that 3-betting QQ here is higher variance, but also more profitable than calling.
Sorry got my words wrong, I believe it's higher EV too, but I don't believe it's higher variance; I believe it's lower variance.
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01-15-2019 , 11:45 PM
Must call river.

So let’s go over real mistake. Why not 3 bet pre? You can make it 85-125 pre and just bet bet bet with resulted flop. Ugh don’t play a cash game you aren’t confident in or one that your bankroll can’t handle some swings.

The flop stated.... if you 3 bet pre you get to most likely play for a big pot. As played, way too passive of a line.
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01-15-2019 , 11:55 PM
The massive mistake isn't the failure to 3b pre (small mistake), but the failure to lead the flop (massive mistake).

If you're going to set mine with QQ, you shouldn't go for a x/r on this flop. Just lead.
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01-16-2019 , 01:13 AM
If you're not going to raise pre with the 3rd best starting hand, you're not ready for these stakes.
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01-16-2019 , 01:30 AM
The fact that you’re OOP is half the reason to 3b: it lowers the SPR making the hand easier rather than harder to play. You’re also obviously doing it for value. If you raised to like 115 pre, get called in one spot, now the pot is 250ish OTF. That as much money as you were able to get into the pot up to the river with your line. After c-betting flop you can shove turn and play for stacks. Plus, you have one rather than two Vs potentially drawing out on you.
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01-16-2019 , 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Railbird_1211
What exactly does he have here that is a bluff? All spade draws got there. AJ got there. JT? That's about the only hand I can imagine villain calling the turn on and then bluffing the river, and even that has SDV. There are almost no bluffs he has here that don't have SDV.
Plenty of diamond flush draws that missed.
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01-16-2019 , 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk
I'm calling under the assumption that V2 would have bet his flush draw when checked to otf IP. I don't think he would have called turn with AJ.

Pre: I really don't mind just calling in SB with pairs through QQ and only 3! KK-AA, AK. Playing OOP with these "smaller" pairs is a nightmare when overcards flop at a relatively high frequency.

I can get behind a donk otf on such a wet connected board to prevent it from checking through/giving a free card.
Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wait
Pre is so bad. Don't care to finish hand
Brevity is the soul of wit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain
While I understand why one could feel weak-tight when moving up in stakes, you are going to have a harder time winning if you avoid higher variance, +EV lines (like 3-betting out the blinds with QQ) in favor of weaker lines with less variance (e.g. playing "fit-or-fold" with premiums).

You may want to move back down to 1-2 until you feel less scared of losing.
I understand the comment. Maybe first time mistakes are free? Well, free minus $400 pots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
I don't think calling with QQ here is as bad as people are saying, although in this spot I probably also 3bet it.

What is worse is that a flop lead was not even considered.

To answer the question of what bluffs Villain can have, he can have the other flush draw, that missed.
Bonus points to you because V2 had Kx with busted backdoor draw.
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01-16-2019 , 02:36 PM
AP insta call on river. Only need to be good 25% of the time and given the ranges of the V's, pot is giving you a very nice overlay to that %.

As for pre, you aren't anywhere near deep enough to worry about "playing a big pot oop"; you only have 120 blinds. If you really feel that way, then buy in shorter or move back down until you are comfortable. You are losing so much value by just flatting here and you are making the hand more difficult to play on later streets. Not only do you gain value by 3! pre, you narrow ranges of V's as well which allows you to make more educated decisions later which can make you more $ or save you more $.
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01-16-2019 , 02:39 PM
Forcing V to have a narrower continuing range is the opposite of making more $$$
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01-16-2019 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator
Forcing V to have a narrower continuing range is the opposite of making more $$$
U miss the point
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01-16-2019 , 02:58 PM
No, I did not miss the point. I think your point is incorrect. Having an easier decision because you've forced V's continuing range to be a narrower (and presumably stronger) doesn't make you more $$$.
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