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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 08-26-2015, 03:09 PM   #51
SpexDome
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

It's not pointless. I've been playing with the sliders on equilib, and if you take the range you've given (99+, AQ+, KQs) and put it up against all 4 villains with reasonable limp/calling ranges we are huge favorites. We have 35% in a 5 way pot, and 42% in a 4 way pot. We'll have top pair or an overpair a huge percentage of the time in a situation where it's hard to make a mistake and easy to get paid. A villain will need two pair+ to beat us. Fuzzy math here but two pair is 50 to 1, times four villains it's like 12 to 1. I'm really not worried about getting out flopped, it's a cost of doing business in this hand.

Also you said "If I raise to 50 with 99-JJ and get 4 callers I'm not happy"

Why not?

Even as a set mine it's profitable. You'd be getting 5-1 on your $40 raise, so you'd only need ot make $80 on average when you flop a set. Easy game when SPR is under 2. Add in the value these hands have as overpairs and I'm fine getting called.

And it's not ALWAYS going to go 4 ways. And this is really the difference we're arguing. I think that $50 is enough to ring someone's bell and make them put in a few milliseconds of thought into their next action. But not so much that calling me with KJs starts to sound like a bad idea. At $70, the risk becomes greater. At $90, we lose all the hands that we should be targeting for value. The range you're advocating WANTS calls. But the bet you're advocating inspires folds.

We really don't have to argue specific ranges for the villains. On a macro scale bigger bets inspire tighter calling ranges. better competition, with no opportunity to make a mistake (low spr) is bad for us.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:48 PM   #52
gobbledygeek
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

I'm not convinced as you are that there is much difference at all in calling frequencies between $70 vs $90.

ETA: Although I realize it is a slippery slope and pretty soon I'm equating $70 = $1Million based on $10 increments at a time. But still.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:58 PM   #53
SpexDome
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

Where's the reset button? It seems that things have gotten blurry here.

I thought we were debating a raise to $50 vs a raise to $90

the fact that we've drifted towards the middle probably means something. I'm prepared to accept that a proper pot size raise to $60 would be best. If we're only playing the range Mr Doomed is quoting (5% hands), then we definitely want calls.

As I've stated earlier, villains calling ranges are not linear. They will call call call up to a certain point and then reach a point they'll only cross with premium hands. If we're playing a range of straight value hands, then the worst thing that can happen is to bet an amount that is past that point. $60 has a better chance of being on the call-side than $90. And both bets lead to no-sweat situations post flop if we're only $300 deep.
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Old 08-26-2015, 10:11 PM   #54
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

Ask anyone here if they would rather be in a heads up pot with 220 in the middle with 220 behind or in a 5 way pot with the same range with 250 and 250. The reason is we can end up folding the best hand some of the times. In The heads up pot we have 40 bucks in dead money and we are heads up and can stack off on virtually any flop.
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Old 08-26-2015, 10:46 PM   #55
SpexDome
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

Your whole argument revolves around the premise that $50 gets called by everybody and $70 gets called by just one guy. Also, your math seems off. Raising to $70 and getting called makes a pot of 170, not 220. Are you now changing your mind and advocating $90?

I think you're failing to quantify the value you that you lose when you have a top 5% hand and talk everyone into folding pre-flop.

Also ,the two scenarios you suggested for comparison aren't the only possibilities.

If you have AA, do you really want the pot heads up? You would WANT 5 callers with AA. Probably KK too. QQ can stand a little mutliway heat. When AK hits, it's rarely out-flopped, even by four other hands. These are all situations where you would want more people in the pot, because it's more likely that one of them has a second best hand.

The hands you're playing will be top pair or an overpair. So you're really only worried about 2-pair+, and the odds of 1 of 4 opponents making such a hand are miniscule.

You want money in the pot. If your $50 raise gets called every time, and your $90 raise only gets called half the time, then you should bet $50. You are failing to acknowledge all the times you are allowing villains to make the correct decision and fold their trash against your premium hand.

It's only when you open your range past the top 5% hands you're advocating that it becomes advantageous to increase your raise size. For example, if you're gonna play KJ, then you probably want AT to fold.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:37 AM   #56
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed View Post
I think any time we are talking ranges it's subjective to our own personal opinion. I believe villans that are bad enough to flat straddles are also equally bad enough to call a large bet. Believe it or not people will view a large bet as bluffs or someone trying to steal the straddles. So based on that logic I think 55+ and all Broadway combos including A10 AJ are likely to continue. One player is likely to be bad enough to call with that range and that is the person I want to be heads up against with an SPR of 1ish. Then I can comfortably stack off on most flops and villan has made a huge mistake calling pre that can't be made up.

What you have failed to address is that your smaller sizing is actually not pot sized. The sizing also gives the straddled 2.5/1 immediate odds to call. Then all the limpers are not making an immediately unprofitable decision by calling. So what do we do with are 10% value range when we don't flop well in a 5 way pot with a 1 SPR?

We can argue ranges but we can't argue math. When villans have money in the middle they don't fold easily especially if they think this young guys is trying to steal the pot.

As for a 1/3 players calling range based on what is reasonable really depends. Plenty of people don't care about the sizing and will gamble. Obviously we would have more info if we are sitting at the table(physical description of the villans at minimum). If it's a bunch of old guys sitting around the table I'm going to be stealing a lot more. I'd imagine they deem a reasonable bet to be smaller than 70-90. At that table you strategy is better long as you tighten your value range. It's a bunch of degen gambler looking types of Asians or what ever then I'm raising larger with a value range.

I'm done discussing this until we get at least a generic description of the villans. Otherwise we are just wasting our finger strength typing away pointless arguments.
70-90 the larger side of the scale. Didn't I say I agree with GG in the beginning? Id imagine that if I make it 70 I can get called by two people but again that's a readless opinion.

Last edited by Mr_Doomed; 08-27-2015 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:42 AM   #57
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Btn straddle spot preflop

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post
Your whole argument revolves around the premise that $50 gets called by everybody and $70 gets called by just one guy. Also, your math seems off. Raising to $70 and getting called makes a pot of 170, not 220. Are you now changing your mind and advocating $90?

I think you're failing to quantify the value you that you lose when you have a top 5% hand and talk everyone into folding pre-flop.

Also ,the two scenarios you suggested for comparison aren't the only possibilities.

If you have AA, do you really want the pot heads up? You would WANT 5 callers with AA. Probably KK too. QQ can stand a little mutliway heat. When AK hits, it's rarely out-flopped, even by four other hands. These are all situations where you would want more people in the pot, because it's more likely that one of them has a second best hand.

The hands you're playing will be top pair or an overpair. So you're really only worried about 2-pair+, and the odds of 1 of 4 opponents making such a hand are miniscule.

You want money in the pot. If your $50 raise gets called every time, and your $90 raise only gets called half the time, then you should bet $50. You are failing to acknowledge all the times you are allowing villains to make the correct decision and fold their trash against your premium hand.

It's only when you open your range past the top 5% hands you're advocating that it becomes advantageous to increase your raise size. For example, if you're gonna play KJ, then you probably want AT to fold.
Around and around we go. Id agree that AA and KK are two hands I'm ok going multi way. But in your argument you raising to 50 with that entire range. Going multi way with 99-JJ is a disaster.
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