Preflop descriptions:

Hero: Straightforward tight-aggressive player. Has an image for being tight, but does stab at pots, make plays also.

Villain: Tight, nitty fish. Usually doesn't bet without some kind of hand, but has called stack off with top pair top kicker, etc in multiway pots before. Usually just extremely tight.

$1/3 NL home game

SB
BB
UTG Hero ($450)
MP Villain ($285)
MP 2
LP 1
LP 2
Button

Hero is dealt T9

UTG Hero raises to $10, MP Villain calls, 3 other players call including BB.

Flop ($50): AT9

BB checks, UTG Hero bets $35, Villain calls, everyone else folds.

Turn ($120): 4

Hero bets $75, Villain calls.

River ($270): J

Hero checks, Villain goes all in for $165. Hero?

I hate the check OTR, personally, even though you're not deep enough to b/f. You have to call here for just over half pot, but I bet you see AJ a lot when you do. Straights and flushes also poss, but given V description, I don't see much in his range that called to get there.

Yeah there shouldn't be a decision because you should be shoving to get value from aq, ak because you are already too committed. Easy close your eyes thin value shove

fold

you said vil doesnt call off w/o some kind of hand so he's prob not betting here w/o something too

the only hands you beat are AK/AQ and he's likely checking behind w/ those

i was thinking shove river at first but changed my mind as he's prob folding worse hands sometimes to that and every other hand in his range now beats us

I think I have spewed more of money with mid-bottom two pair than any other type of hand. Seem to always overplay it. Tough spot, you've built the odds for a call, but I'm not feeling great about the call here. I might have checked turn and gone for two streets of value, but a lot of time I'd play it just like you did and getting owned. Not sure what the best correction is.

I just want to chime in and say whenever we have two pair (bottom or mid two pair) on Ace high boards we should always ALWAYS tread carefully. rec fish play Ax pretty much 100% and the odds of us getting snapped off by Aces up is pretty damn high.

Whenever I have two pair on Ace high boards vs multiple villains, I'm pot controlling and just being mindful of the maxim "Small hand small pot, big hand big pot..."

normally two pair is a good hand, but imo, it is not a "go crazy and try to stack villain" hand when we are dealing with Ace high boards and we have non Ace two pairs.

Just sayin.

As sick as it sounds, I'm a big fan of checking one street here whether it be flop or turn or doing blocking bets disguised as weak value bets firing out $25 on flop, $30 on turn, $45 on river. I want to manage the size of the pot so I can bet/fold river without being pot committed or heavily vested. The last thing I want to do is bloat this pot such that I feel obligated to bet a strong $120-ish on the river but by then V only has $65 more behind and when he shoves all-in for $165 we almost can't fold to it since we are getting bazillion to one on a call and only have to be good a miniscule part of the time...

So because of this, when I have a non ace two pair on Ace boards, I don't go nuts unless I can narrow V's range to big Aces (AK, AQ, AJ) and the board is ace with low ball crap. Against ABC players with narrow raising ranges we can range them and own them with two pairs on boards we know missed their ace kicker. But against your standard rec-fish that calls preflop raises with Ace anything, you are better off being conservative when you have non ace two pairs on ace boards...

The small preflop raise seems absolutely pointless to me. It didn't narrow the field (so we have no postflop FE), it's not for value (we have T high, we think we're good?), we're going to be OOP, what was the point? If the table is passive and bad, I might open limp (although this could be leaky). Otherwise I'd just open fold. If I am going to get out of line and raise, I would make a big raise so that I actually have a chance at narrowing the field to HU where I can win the pot with a flop cbet. We took the absolute worst option of the four available, imo.

Thanks to bloating the pot preflop, and with villain's stack < 100bbs, I'm now stacking off postflop. Flop is a little drawy and in a 4way pot we're either getting action or we're not, so I woulda potted the flop. I might even overpot it so I could only slightly overshove the turn.

As played, I fold the river. About the only hand that we're beating is QJ, and they would typically check behind here (as would AK/AQ a lot). AJ, JT, 98 also just got there, plus we might have been dead all along.

This whole mess was set up by preflop. Ask yourself what you're trying to accomplish. Was going to a flop 4ways OOP with a weak speculative hand in a bloated pot your goal?

GcluelessNLnoobG

The only reason I would raise with T9s from EP is if I have a very strong image and I'm at a table where players always assume my raises are "AK" and that I can rep an Ace or King and fold them out.

then by all means, raise with SCs from EP.

However, if this is NOT the case and we are at a typical "no-fold-em-hold-em" table then raising with speculative hands from EP is lighting money on fire unless everyone is 200bb+ deep and you are awesome post flop. And even still, you want to limit the frequency of these types of raises probably to something like 15% of your total EP raising range while the majority of your EP raising range is top heavy KQ+, JJ+.

but at 100bb-ish deep, ABC poker is just the way to go.

yup, was thinking fold pre as well obviously

but hate to post that in this forum