2/5 Live NLHE: $800 effective stacks.

I limp UTG+1 with 44. (I used to never limp, but have started to incorporate this into my play.) MP raises to $30, button calls $30, SB calls $30, I call $30.

Flop: T94 Pot is $120. SB checks, I check, initial raiser bets $60, button folds, SB check raises to $150. Action on me. What is our play here?

Two things to consider: There are 6 combos of better sets and only 2 combos of T9s. The guy definitely doesn't appear to be the type who would be getting out of line here. I mean, maybe he is doing this with JJ, but I am 80-90% certain that QQ he re-raises pre-flop.

I end up calling. Initial raiser folds.

Turn: 6 Pot is $480

He bets $300. 78 got there (though he would probably call that on the flop getting 3:1. Likewise, why wouldn't he just call QJs on the flop getting 3:1. With such good odds, why blow ourselves off our great price.) I have $620 behind. What is our play?

It's pretty much impossible to range SB in this spot when you provide zero reads. Turn is a jam or fold. Against an older guy, I might actually fold this turn here as his range probably isn't much wider than {TT, 99, T9s}, which has us crushed.

Okay first off I'm gonna help you on your reads. SB doesn't have a hand like QJ off or QJ period. It doesn't make sense for him to rr an up and down straight draw. And then bet out $300 when it doesn't get there. i think the same thing goes for 78. I don't think he has a hand like JJ+ here, I think he would have rr pre.

A lot of the times the SB is showing up with 910 here, which makes perfect sense with the line that he took. I'm SHOVING on the flop and I'll honestly be shocked if he shows up with 1010. It's POSSIBLE he could have 99, but I think a lot of the time its going to be 910.

Get it in good and SHOVE flop.

I don't know if I'm jamming flop, but I agree that flop needs to be a reraise. The problem is that calling $150 while sandwiched between the pfr and the check-raiser is already REALLY strong. Call or fold, you're announcing that your hand is really strong.

Reraise to $350, and call a shove.

I like a 4bet/fold of his $150 on the flop to $300, it declares you have a set - he is either going to call with 109 trying to turn a FH or ship it if he has a better set. I never see T9 folding to $150 more here. Either way it allows you to read his hand a lot more clearly. He is almost never shoving the flop with just two pair trying to move you off what is obviously a set.

Does anyone think he can possible have AT here?

This is really interesting but I don't like the idea of raising to "find out where you're at" if he has the slightest bit in him to ship T9 over your 4b.

Perhaps, but I just think the 4b looks SO strong. I've never seen a 4b in this spot with less than a set. If V is crazy enough to think he can move anyone off an obvious set in this spot at live 1/2 he's not going to last very long.

At $800 these decisions need to be part of the game plan prior to the hand. Player dependent, but more about what you find is profitable. So, either fold PF OR shove flop AP.

Fold pre because you want to avoid the high spr, high RIO, lowish IO (we've seen this line before) with EP Small PP in multiway.

If not folding pre then 4b shove - can't call and leave any easy calls for OR, can't flat SB and fold to his committing turn barrel (4,9,T turns change things a bit of course), and basically there is still plenty that you beat that can/will call at the depth. T9, SD, JJ (calls a lot in SB at 2/5)... Maaaaybe QQ+ depending on villain who planned to x/r any dry flop 4 handed

so why 4! him then? if he never ships with T9 he either folds a hand we're dominating or he ships with hands that are dominating us. seems pretty lose/lose to me

This is a fold on the turn. It's really hard for villain to have a hand we can beat. Overpairs are discounted by the lack of a pre-flop raise. Straights are discounted for reasons already presented in post #3. The only thing we're beating is T9, and we're losing to everything else.

Big bets are for big hands. Villain just committed his stack and we can't beat much.

I'd probably lead the flop though...

Generally speaking this is a Flop (and spot) for bottom set to open or c/r. The board is connected to a lot of limpy/calling type of hands and we need to shake the bushes since this is muli-way.

If I check Flop, I am pretty much raising with opponents behind if given the opportunity. I want position for the rest of the hand or I want to be all-in (so to speak). We got very lucky that the OR folded out after his c-bet.

AP, I think you have to risk him not showing up with 78 and take the set over set spots in stride while shoving. He may not pay you off on River if you are looking for a c/c spot.

I have seen plenty of V show up with the low end of the ranges here but we also only know this guy as "SB" ... What is this guy putting MP on if he is c/r the Flop? You make a valid point that he should be pretty strong here but at a passive table I might make this bet with a draw/fold spot being OOP.

I have folded bottom set before, but I'm just not folding it to a 6 in this hand once I make the call on the Flop. GL

That sounds like a great way to light $300 on fire, should probably just tell V we have a set and let him do whatever.

OP - I hate c/r this flop, it's just always a set and if your opponents are any good, they'll know that, especially after you cold 4b a c/r or flat a c/r with action behind. I'm leading this flop for a PSB instead of going for the c/r. In an alternate universe, you lead for a PSB, two people call, SB c/r and you stuff it with a bunch of dead money in between, plus someone might call behind with a straight draw to gamb00l. If the flop was 9T4ddx then I would like a c/r more since you can still have combo draws in your range.

Could he ever have a hand like AT?

Some players go absolutely nuts with TPTK but this is a rough spot.

That is why some people just like to fold small PP early.


If you think you are beat just fold. I'm probably not folding in this spot - and I am probably just getting it in on the turn as played.

Preflop I would probably fold.

It would really depend though - I play a lot of small pocket pairs. But I have been burned before by set over set. I think they are better to play when you are 150BB or less. Once you get over 200BB I think small pocket pairs might have huge reverse implied odds just on the mere chance you get set over set when a ton of money goes in and you can lose your whole stack to a giant set up hand. Will have to do more research on this though.

Weird hand.

I dislike threads without reads.

This talk of a 4bet/fold on the flop blows my mind.

Calling the turn and donking all in on safe rivers might be good if we think he folds T9 to a shove on the turn.

Is Villain really c/r top set on this dry board? I don't think he likes money if he is. If its set over set, its middle set over bottom set.

I think his range can include JJ-KK with the intent of letting the OR cbet and then c/r weak flops. This is probably more likely than c/r top set.

The flop seems like a shove to me. As played the turn is close, but he can't think the 6 helped you. Plenty of things in his range he decided to c/r flop with that you still beat, and would then still want to bet the turn. Only hand to worry about with his line is 99 imo. Turn is probably a shove as well. Reads on him playing SB can change all of this, obviously.

OP, continue with the hand please.

There is so little information available for use. We can assume this is a table with at least two other players who love to limp. Because they love to limp, they are probably regs. Reg Limpers are usually very good readers of players at their table. They like to limp, preferring to not risk money up front as they can outplay post flop.

As you have recently introduced limping into your game, a wag is your people reading skills are not as highly developed as the players you learned limping from, which places you at a disadvantage.

For the hand. Limpers called a preflop raise. So they have something. You flop the best hand you can reasonably expect to flop. There is action, and now a raise. Now it is your action.

You are heads up against one unknown player who has raising interest in the pot. This hand has just turned into a slot machine play for all your chips. He either wants to take it down now, or wants all the chips. I would put him on two pair, or pair and overcard at the least with a set likely.

In the end I do not think it matters what he holds. I would fold on the flop and re-evaluate whether limping is a winning strategy at this table and these stakes.

Sorry I don't have much else to add because I'm about to go to sleep, but you should basically completely ignore everything that is being said here. Folding the flop is extremely bad. You should basically be licking your chops to GII here, especially versus an unknown. Unknown players can show up with all kinds of nonsense in this spot, AA-JJ and Tx can't be discounted with zero reads. Flatting the flop is fine IMO, now ship the turn over his bet. It's a cooler if he's got you beat.

yikes, so bad, could ship his entire range here

best starting hand in the deck

absolute 100% gotta lead this flop and never planning to fold

AP, you need to develop reads, if T9o is in V range you're not folding

in the end, without a solid nitty read, I'm not folding a set at this SPR

My read on villain is this: Seems very arrogant and douchy, a lot like Brian Townsend. Sitting there with his headphones on, keeping to himself. Definitely not a spewer. My read is that he's never doing this light. I expected to see 99 or TT when I shipped turn and indeed did. He had TT. On the river a 7 falls and I tell him I have a set. He doesn't say anything but instead waits for me to flip it over before turning over TT.

This is one of those spots where I feel players often chalk it up to a "cooler" but really, all of the information was there for me to make a strong fold on the turn. QQ+ can be completely discounted due to PF and JJ is unlikely, as it would probably bet the flop and also likely have RR PF.

From a combinatrics perspective, there are only 2 T9s and 3 TT and 3 99. Since these constitute his entire range we probably should fold on the turn. We only crush 25% of his range but are crushed worse by the other 75%. Why isn't he afraid that we could have a set unless he has one himself?

Based on the additional reads, this is maybe a fold.

But the general rule at LLSNL is to not fold a set unless the board is MASSIVELY scary and drawy. And I think that rule is +EV over time.

If I think back across the hands when I've had a small set, faced heavy betting, and strongly contemplated a fold, there are a lot more times when I almost folded (or did fold) and was shown something bizarre and much weaker than there are times when the guy actually showed up with a set.

Maybe this was one of those rare villains who you can get a stone read on and make the hero-fold. But as general strategy, I'd caution about drawing big lessons from this one result.

His flop sizing really sucks because it's so nutty OOP with stacks behind, but the player you described should definitely be capable of doing this with an OESD too. I'm still not folding.

Let's think about this from a "solid V" perspective with a hand like QJ. We are OOP, so we have a few choices:

1. Lead flop, brick turn often, still be OOP versus one or two potential calls
2. C/c flop, hard to get paid off OOP unless someone else has a set or a hand like KT
3. C/r flop, take control of the hand, use small sizing to set up more options on the turn since V's are not committed to stacking off yet

If we are V, which one of those options sounds best?

If you are one of the V's what hands are you willing to limp and then call a preflop raise with? Middle pairs fit the bill, along with possibly suited connectors once you enough see other players are going along.