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Old 05-16-2018, 03:32 AM   #1
RottPhiler
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Bottom Set on Flushing River

$1/$2 NL 8 handed with 5 passives, 1 good player, and 1 player who thinks he's good, and me.

SB - Good player/Villain (~$900) - Played with him once, seems very competent, capable of bluffing. Has seen me get caught c-betting and double barreling with air the previous night.

BB - Gambler (~600) - Can show up with ATC. Understands some strategy but overall loose passive.

UTG - Random dude who thinks he's a pro (~400) - Keeps talking strategy and also talks with SB about what cards he thinks I'm holding, thinking I'm out of earshot. Is wrong every single time, that it's getting hilarious. Limps from the SB to a button straddle to $4 and calls my $25 (6x) raise with Q8o and miraculously hits a Q, when I had JJ, then proceeds to tell everyone he knew I had a pocket pair and that's why he called with Q8o.

UTG+1 - Gambler Loose Passive. Irrelevant to the hand.
UTG+2 - Gambler shortstacking loose passive. (~$30)
UTG+3 - Empty Seat.

HJ - Hero ($250) - First hand of the session. Solid LAG with a fold button.
CO - Tight passive (~$150).
BTN - Tight passive (~$100).

OTTH
Hero is dealt 22 in the HJ. UTG limps, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 limps, Hero raises to $14, CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls and closes action. Pot $98, seven ways to the flop.

Flop: AT8
Checks all the way around. Pot $98.

Turn: 6
Checks all the way around. Pot $98.

River: 2
Checks to hero who bets $35, folds to SB who raises to $140. Hero??

Questions:
1) Would you c-bet flop as we must have several Aces in our range? If so, what sizing? Alternatively with 6 callers, there must be several Aces out there? What's the plan for the turn if called by one player only? (Anything more and it's an easy give up, right?)
2) Would you delayed-c-bet turn, once the flop checks through? If so, what sizing? This is going to look awfully suspicious to anyone?
3) Would you call river, since this bet from me looks supremely suspicious? Where am I in my range? Should I have sized bigger since I typically bet at-least half pot which could perhaps have been observed?
4) If you think I'm stealing, would you re-steal in this spot with 3 players in between? If so, what sizing would you bluff to?
5) The no-action-till-river-and-then-huge-action spot confused the heck out of me. How often is this a bluff vs. value?

Last edited by RottPhiler; 05-16-2018 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:56 AM   #2
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Pf I'm not raising this hand. You're definitely getting called probably in multiple spots and 22 is not a hand you want to have on almost any flop.
Happy to limp along here and set mine.

As played I'm not betting flop or turn.

River I think can call since you said he's good. Which I take it to mean that he knows you can't have much since you would have likely bet flop or turn with a made hand or FD especially and since everyone else checked through 3 streets he knows no one else is strong either. So the fact he knows you should be folding alot and never really have anything here is why I would opt to call. But at the same time I think he could show up with a flush here sometimes as well. But all in all I'm calling the river.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:13 AM   #3
venice10
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

As said above, limp 22 in this situation pf at a loose passive table. You're going to get called a lot.

However if you are going to raise pf, I'm betting 100% of the time on this flop. When you raise pf, everyone puts you on AK (basically to justify a call). If you had AK, would you have checked the flop? Of course not. So you might as well pretend you have it. You'll narrow the field and see if anyone has anything.

I think you have to call the river as played. He probably has you on some middle pair that missed.

I'll just note that if you want to be a good LAG, you need to recognize these situations where you can put pressure on your weak opponents. My guess is that you could have won this hand on the turn if you were betting. It was early and virtually all of the the people who saw you before have no recollection of how you play.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:27 AM   #4
QuadJ
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Preflop I'm limping unless a raise will fold out a bunch of people. If I was going to raise it would have been bigger, after 3 limps I'm making it at least $16. With UTG who isn't going to want to fold $20 is probably better.

With that many people in the pot betting flop is a mistake, this is a just give up flop. Same thing on turn, at 1/2 you will run into too many people who limp called with weak AX and won't take any initiative themselves but won't fold either.

River is a villain specific judgement call. Have you seen villain check/raise bluff? Villain is pretty polarized between bluffs and flushes. There are a lot of semi-decent low stakes opponents who are never bluffing like this and you can fold. But after all that passive action a decent opponent can also think you are taking a cheap stab and raise with air or weak hands. The raise size is oddly big for the situation, if I was trying to get you off a bluff $100 is enough. You spiked a better hand then you should have for the situation which makes me lean call on the river but you will run into a flush sometimes. If villain turns up with the straight they are not good.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:56 AM   #5
AllTheCheese
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Don't raise pre ffs. You shouldn't be raising 22 in the HJ when it folds to you, let alone with limpers. Betting with no equity into six players would also be insane regardless of whether you "rep AK" or not. As played, mandatory call. This is the best hand in your range.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:52 AM   #6
Warteen
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

This is an ongoing issue from separate threads and YMMV, but I'm fine with raising pre. But if you're going to, you have to raise enough to actually fold some people out.
No way you should bet this flop with this many players. You have zero FE and little chance to improve. Same story for the turn. Check through is good, especially with potentially tricky players in the hand.
The river is absolutely a call, for the reason AllTheCheese stated.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:13 PM   #7
Javanewt
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Limp pre, the rest is fine although I might have bet a little bigger on river unless I was actually trying to induce, now call.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:46 PM   #8
whorasaurus
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

From what I can tell, V is doing this with 3 other people that have to act before Hero. That includes the gambly BB. This cuts down his non-flush combos, imo. If this were heads up, easy call. Here, I'm leaning towards a fold tbh.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:17 AM   #9
Jay S
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Quote:
Originally Posted by whorasaurus View Post
From what I can tell, V is doing this with 3 other people that have to act before Hero. That includes the gambly BB. This cuts down his non-flush combos, imo. If this were heads up, easy call. Here, I'm leaning towards a fold tbh.
Also includes a player who, if I've followed the hand correctly, has $16 left.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:22 AM   #10
PixieRust
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

You gotta lose the ego, and not use a hand history as an opportunity to whine about players you don't like.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:23 AM   #11
RottPhiler
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Thanks for all your responses. They all make a ton of sense.

Typically when I sit down at the table I'm looking to build an image as a loose kamikaze guy. I don't mind spewing a little, so that people will start calling me light. I play so often at my home casino that a lot of people see through this, but even then I want to be sort of setting the tempo of the table and changing the limp passive dynamics. This is why I raised 22 pre-flop. Later on I push some percentage of my pocket pairs into my limping range.

The shortstack with the $16 left always screws up the game I want to play. I can never c-bet a flop without a piece if she's in the hand, as it's impossible to get her to fold any piece of the flop including gutshot draws. She didn't come there to fold, and she's in the game if the 6-12 limit omaha game isn't going.

With 6 callers including the shortstack, I basically just gave up repping a strong Ace. I put pressure all the time with upto 3 opponents and perhaps even 4, but I decided to shut it down here.

Results:
The three players folded and it's back to me. It felt like it was a call-and-get-shown-the-nuts and fold-and-get-shown-a-bluff situation. I reasoned that there were very few people who would bluff check-raise the river without a flush in this spot at $1/$2, and while it seemed that this particular player was the only one capable of taking the pot away from me without the flush, I decided to let it go and folded. I got shown 64 suited (diamonds for a stone-cold bluff), and began second-guessing the entire hand, while tipping my imaginary hat to a good play.

Last edited by RottPhiler; 05-17-2018 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:24 AM   #12
RottPhiler
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Quote:
Originally Posted by PixieRust View Post
You gotta lose the ego, and not use a hand history as an opportunity to whine about players you don't like.
True. Sorry about this. The "good player who thinks he was a pro" pre-flop read was a bit of a vent. He was irrelevant to this hand.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:26 AM   #13
PixieRust
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

It's not a big deal, didn't take me that long to read after all, but it's one of the surest signs of a mental leak. Make use of it, and work on your mental game and not be entitled (of respect, of winning, etc) or care about what other players think (wrongly or not) of you.

I think your played your hand post flop standard, and river's kind of tough. Would boil down to in the moment reads, but if I had to make a choice, I'd go with fold, but I'm always looking for a reason to call here, if anything makes me think there's a bluff frequency here. Also I would think about how likely villain would check back a draw twice. Some people do it less than others.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:08 AM   #14
PFunkaliscious
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Re: Bottom Set on Flushing River

Never bluff into a 7 way pot unless you have a nut blocker. No one ch/raises the river at 1/2 without it. No one C/R's the river into a seven way pot without the winner.

muck it like your cards on are fire.
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