History:
Have been at table for about 1.5 hours. I am playing pretty TAGgy and it's been reasonably successful - built my stack up from $200 to $270, ABC play is working pretty well for now. Have only had to show down once and had the goods.

The first hand after I sat down, Villain 1 (youngish white guy) in this hand limp-called 36s, pot-bluffed an OESD multiway on the turn facing no aggression, and then bluffed the river - a pretty good river bluff, I thought, but he got looked up with top pair anyway. The table in general has been doing an even mix of limp-calling and raising pf, but I have seen zero 3-bets. No especially tough spots evident, but I see I don't want to get too fancy at this table and am likely to be looked up reasonably often.

The old white guy two spots to my left, Villain 2 in this hand, has limped some hands but is otherwise tight-passive. He got into a confrontation with another old guy on a 555A board. He bet small at the flop and folded the turn when donked into, flipping over QQ. (Other old guy had AJ.) So, your basic OMC.

The hand:

Hero (~$270) is Button with A A . Villain 1 in MP (~$260) open-raises to $8. Folds around, Hero 3! to $23. Villain 2 (~$270) in BB calls, Villain 1 calls.

Flop: 8 8 4

Both villains check. Hero bets $30. Villain 2 (old guy) raises to $75. Villain 1 pushes all-in for ~$245.

What's my line, fellas?

Nasty spot.

If V1 had an 8X hand, probably just flatting ip, no? Can perhaps range him more toward FD/SD given his descript? Hands like 76ss/65ss?

V2 probably doesn't have an 8X hand in his 3-b calling range. Perhaps slow-played over pairs QQ+/44?

Our light cbet could be perceived as AK, so I'd lean toward a call with backdoor equity hopes. Be ready to say "chips please".

This is what I was thinking, but if we include 76s and 65s in his range, we have to include 89s and 87s too, right? My perceived range of this villain after the shove was an 8, 44, any lesser flush draw, any straight draw, and I wouldn't rule out an overplayed middle or overpair given how I've perceived him, but that's probably not likely.

I was pretty certain he didn't have 8X in his range, yes. In fact, I doubted he was cold-calling a 3b with 44, so I put his range after checkraising pretty firmly as JJ-AA and possibly 88. I'm wondering how people feel about my range estimations here and whether they'd prefer a call or fold in this spot. I do consider it a tough spot.

We do. My thinking is those 8X combos would flat ip and not re-raise AI. His sizing of ~3.5X the $75 raise folds the weaker part of opponent ranges.

I call against the OMC all day long here, but the other guy's action would make me fold AA in your spot

I have saved a lot of money in multiway pots folding AA OTF when the action goes whatever (me)-bet (v1)-shove (v2), so I just snap fold in these situations. I buy in like 150bb deep which makes a difference though.

My guesstimate is that I'm ahead here like 20% of the time and it stings when that happens but generally I'm crushed.

I'm going to remember this. (I was at nearly 150bb so it's definitely relevant.) I estimated that I was like 30% ahead and talked myself into the call, but I'd probably be a better player if I could find a fold. The other thing I had to consider is that if MP is behind, he isn't *that* far behind, but if he has the 8 I'm pretty well boned and have to rely on an unlikely ace or running spades. I think I need to learn to find a fold here. Thoughts from anyone else?

Villain 2 should more or less never have you beat. As for Villain 1, I think fold because you hold the Ace of spades. This is a call with red Aces or Kings of any suit.

My friend/backer said something very similar to this, so I need to shift my thinking here. I was *more* inclined to call because I had the spade for some backdoor equity, but it sounds like the damage this does to me by taking Axss combos out of V1's pushing range pushes it pretty far in the other direction.

V1 had an 8?

Id just fold here 140bb deep vs given action with black aces

Results:

V1 had 8 6 .
V2 had A A .

Board ran out 4 x and I lost the huge pot.

Next time I'm in this spot, I plan to fold. I feel like it was at least close, but after further analysis I'm going to try to change the way I play it. Thanks for the advice, guys!

You bet on the flop because 2 spades were on board? Pretty sure Janda book would recommend a check. The 2 reasons he gives for betting are not satisfied. But it does seem like betting $30 gave you the information you needed to fold.

Before seeing results I’m folding. If villain has been paying any attention whatsoever, he’s putting you on AA or KK, or maybe just an overpaid, as this is the first three bet at this table what else could you have? He expects you to call. Otherwise he’d call and hope you keep betting.

I was betting on the flop for a multitude of reasons. I get information, or value, or protection, depending on what my opponents have. Does that seem goofy?

Yeah I’m checking flop here also. As played fold and be happy about it.

It’s not so much goofy as it is misunderstanding your own goals regarding this bet. I guess you got good info with your bet but just failed to act on it. In general though, betting to get information is not the greatest of reasons to bet. Often when 3 streets of betting goes in on this board AA is winning <50% at showdown and there is still time to get all the money in if we want as this is nolimit. Also by checking you make sure you have good hands in your checking range that can call down on most runouts. AA doesn’t need much protection here either, esp AsAx combos.

Grunch.

Raise more pre, like $30 at least iyam. Guy doesn't seem to fold if he's l/c 63s pre & blasting off with it post.

I think 8x is highly unlikely for either villain. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I read V2/OMC for a slowplayed TT-KK click-raising for info, and for all we know V1 could easily overplay 99+/JTss+ based on reads. I'd feel obligated to call it off.

I really dislike your 3bet sizing. Villain 1 is a station who hates to fold suited cards, but you don't even 3x his open? Once Villain 2 calls, the pot is $55 and it's only $15 for V1 to call.

Against these types of opponents, you need to go larger pre.

Once he check-raises you and the OMC this is a pretty trivial fold.

Checking the flop is criminal. BB has a pocketpair or good big cards. He will not fold often. I also pretty gladly play for my stack against Villain 1 if Villain 2 folds to cbet and he raises. You have to make VALUE from your good hands, not worry about like 14 combos total of monsters under the bed.

+1

Yeah I agree with this. Other than a flop with an Ace, this is about as good as it gets versus two players. Remember this is 3! pot so the likelihood someone has an 8 or 44 is dramatically lower (until they show the aggression they did). This is a fat value spot for me on the flop and I actually bet bigger (pot ~$70, I probably go $50-$55 here). You get tons of value from 99-KK and flush draws.

I also go bigger pre ($30-$35) based on stacks...still not so big that everyone folds, but $7-$12 more in value from both if they choose to continue.

I would have folded to the shove. Based on pot odds alone, you need around 33% and I think you are more in the mid-20's versus most reasonably constructed ranges.

I don't think randoms/recs @ 1/2 are "well-constructed" here, or generally. However, overplay is a thing @ these stakes (due mostly to entitlement tilt, lack of experience, and/or poor hand reading), so I choose not to fold in 4 SPR pot when both guys have lots of 99+/suited broadways (~35+), & very few 44/8x (~6). The maybe-OMC appears weighted toward a slowplayed overpair, & the only nutted hands in OR's range are a couple of A8s/44 (aka putting all the SSCs/SPPs in a 1/2 randoms RFI range w/o showdowns/frequencies to validate it is bad iyam). We'd have to discount the overplays by a ridiculous % to make this a fold I think.

WTS, I agree that folding is a fine play too & possibly better (based purely on the added transparency of 3-way dynamics generally), but I can't see how stacking off in this alignment isn't +EV.

In general I agree with what you say above in terms of constructing ranges. But the reason why this is different is because of the action we see. I think we have to re-construct ranges once we bet, get raised and 3! shoved on. The board is dry enough (really only FD's AND we hold the nut blocker) that the combos lean more towards nut hands overall. Switch our position with OMC when we can now close the action and he has folded, and maybe I can find a call HU versus V1. But without that, I can't see how calling here is +EV long term multi-way unless you are against incredibly spewy opponents.

Preflop

I'd actually consider flatting. Villain 1 seems like the type to make the mistake of betting too much, so maybe it'd be good to let him be the aggressor and induce bluffs.

Ultimately though, I don't think there's enough evidence to justify flatting. The other downside to flatting is that it's more likely to end up in a multiway pot, which AA doesn't do as well in 1) because it's easier for it to get sucked out and 2) you're less likely to get value from hands like top pair weak kicker and second pair. So I agree with the three bet.

Flop facing all in

Ouch, that is tough. It's important to point out that you have the ace of spades, so your opponents can't have the nut flush draw.

Value hands your opponents could have that beat you: 88, 44, A8s, K8s, T8s, 98s, 87s, and 86s. What about hands like overpairs that they perceive to be value? I could see Villain 2 having some, but I think it needs to be discounted a fair amount given his passive nature.

What about Villain 1? Even for someone a little wild, it's just really hard to 3bet over two tight opponents with something like 99-JJ.

I don't really see any possible bluffs. Is Villain 1 really open calling Kxs, and then 3betting all in versus a bet and then raise? That'd be pretty ridiculous.

Even if we credit Villain 1 with KK and QQ (which need to be discounted because I think he'd 4bet some of that preflop), I think the range that beats you is bigger than the one you beat, and only one of the two opponents need to have you crushed.

With my assumptions, you only have about 14% equity. If both opponents did this with all of their overpairs, then you have 42% equity. If you throw in some Kxs bluffs from Villain 1, you have even more. So it does depend on your assumptions.