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Bluff becomes a bluff-catcher? 5/5

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09-12-2018 , 06:03 PM

HomelessPizza

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 599

5/5 600 eff

Brand new to table; V is 30's unkempt looking Latin guy

folds to us in LJ K

raise to 20
V HJ flats, bb calls
843 [60]
x, H 35, V 105, f, H calls
T [270]
x, V quickly slides out stack of 90
H to 300, V tanks then shrug calls
River 2x [870]
H checks, V jams 165,

Thoughts on line, sizing, and river action

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09-12-2018 , 06:50 PM

matzah_ball

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 2,726

You beat approximately two combos

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09-12-2018 , 06:51 PM

hyperknit

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 2,692

Why did u c/r the turn?
It seems to me that villain has shown significant strength after raising the flop and continuing to bet on the turn, I would look to call the turn bet and lead out if we hit our flush on the river figuring we can get about 200 or implied odds out of him if we hit.

As played I fold riv

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09-12-2018 , 06:59 PM

HawkesDave

adept

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 1,173

I prefer a turn donk bet bluff to a check-raise but not in this situation when the turn card basically reps nothing. Doing it on like a 7 would be better although still not optimal as the OR pre. This whole hand feels kinda spewy.

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09-12-2018 , 07:02 PM

wck117

adept

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 779

we would need way more v info before we could possibly want to call. Obvious fold 99ish% of the time

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09-12-2018 , 07:09 PM

HomelessPizza

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 599

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperknit

Why did u c/r the turn?

As played I fold riv

Bet sizing suggests a marginal hand...I remove all strong hands with that bet sizing on a board that is getting pretty scary. If I call, I am probably not getting paid off OTR, but raising has FE if he's doing this with TXhh, 8Xhh, 99, NFD, etc.

One he tank calls turn I am pretty done with the hand, but once he bet river I tanked and couldn't name a single hand he would do this with.

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09-12-2018 , 07:16 PM

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 11,339

if he's a degenerate looking guy, why would his bet sizes matter? If you were gonna "go with" the hand, save the turn raise money and just jam the flop. Not that I'm suggesting it's the right thing to do (I would rather have the nfd and know my hand is live).

I can name a lot of hands he could be doing this with, and I don't think there are a lot of fd's in there (please don't say you called and you were good against 56hh)

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09-12-2018 , 08:30 PM

HomelessPizza

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 599

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

I think bet sizing always matters.

Definitely a non-standard line, but I felt like my turn raise was profitable.

What hands does V jam OTR? I think my hand still looks like an QQ+. Any sd value checks back like JThh or QThh

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09-13-2018 , 06:28 AM

RoyalRumble

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 382

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

(please don't say you called and you were good against 56hh)

Even 56 hit the straight. Guess we beat 57h and 67h.

I think I'd either prefer jamming turn or making a smaller sizing with intention of shoving river as a bluff. 165 into 870 is so awkward to do much with.

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09-13-2018 , 11:24 AM

#10

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 11,339

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomelessPizza

I think bet sizing always matters.

True but for a recreational/degenerate player they don't always bet in relation to the pot so we can't give them too much credit in that respect while trying to read their bet sizes

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalRumble

Even 56 hit the straight. Guess we beat 57h and 67h.

oops nah we're smoked

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09-13-2018 , 11:43 AM

#11

andrew4433

stranger

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 14

Would you guys generally open K9hh here?

I expected to see responses saying fold pre, is this too nitty?

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09-13-2018 , 11:45 AM

#12

tmo1120

adept

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,027

I like a re-raise on the flop with two overs and flush draw , and being OOP as well , very few set combos so hard for you to be crushed

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09-13-2018 , 11:45 AM

#13

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Fold pre IMO.

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09-13-2018 , 11:47 AM

#14

tmo1120

adept

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew4433

Would you guys generally open K9hh here?

I expected to see responses saying fold pre, is this too nitty?

its a fine hand to raise with in LP when folded to you imo, the alternative would be to open limp which isn't a strong play in most cases

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09-13-2018 , 11:47 AM

#15

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew4433

Would you guys generally open K9hh here?

I expected to see responses saying fold pre, is this too nitty?

I was going to say I feel like every street is wrong including not folding pre. I would say fold pre, check flop, call turn, and fold river. I think it's madness to bluff catch here without some insanely strong read.

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09-13-2018 , 12:01 PM

#16

mrdestiny

centurion

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 148

Rip it in OTT instead of making it 300 with what is left to play for. I like your line and would play a set or T8 the same and some overpairs.

AP idk what to do on this river. Maybe you can bluff away some A-highs or pair+draws that were just looking to hit and dont realise the price they are getting?

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

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09-13-2018 , 12:32 PM

#17

Man of Means

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,104

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomelessPizza

T [270]
x, V quickly slides out stack of 90
H to 300, V tanks then shrug calls
River 2x [870]
H checks, V jams 165,

Thoughts on line, sizing, and river action

Well....if you feel like semi-bluffing either:
[a] just c/r turn all-in to maximize fold equity against one pair; as a bonus perhaps a worse FD or a 65s like hand calls and you win when you both miss.

[b] as played, empty the clip so you have a chance to fold out A-high hands. [Or c/f river]

but I would just c/c turn

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09-13-2018 , 02:16 PM

#18

mdelore

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,315

Pre seems too loose. Flop looks fine. Turn is spew and you probably have zero fold equity with this size. Can easily just take the odds to call here. Also I don't understand the rationale of leaving him $165.

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09-13-2018 , 03:01 PM

#19

PFunkaliscious

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 3,061

why did you CR to only 300 and leave yourself in this spot?

as played, calling 50% of the time. ace high flush draws and flush + pair draws still beat you.

but it really looks like he has QJ

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09-13-2018 , 03:43 PM

#20

Havick

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 395

Folding this pre, particularly against a relatively unknown (hygiene aside).

As others have mentioned, turn is maniac spew. If you're determined to c/r then just jam. After calling off turn, villain hands river every time. After turn, villain never folds river.

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09-13-2018 , 08:41 PM

#21

HomelessPizza

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 599

It’s funny that I’m being told that his bet sizing is irrelevant ott b/c he’s a rec (which is never said), but that raise over 3x his turn bet gives him “great odds” suggesting he is keeping track of pot size and odds. Talk about confirmation bias.

IMO I don’t care how rec he is, anytime someone bets less than they bet on a previous street means they are not confident in their hand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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09-13-2018 , 10:55 PM

#22

DrChesspain

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdelore

Pre seems too loose.

Folding seems way too nitty. The Hero was in the LJ, with five players to follow.

Do people really fold K9s UTG in 6-max games?

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09-13-2018 , 11:01 PM

#23

Havick

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 395

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChesspain

Do people really fold K9s UTG in 6-max games?

Yes. Honestly probably comes down to your play style, but people definitely fold K9 suited.

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09-13-2018 , 11:05 PM

#24

DrChesspain

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havick

Yes. Honestly probably comes down to your play style, but people definitely fold K9 suited.

That's interesting, since according to PS it is a top 20% hand.

But maybe that's not strong enough to open 6-handed?

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09-13-2018 , 11:20 PM

#25

browni3141

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 5,678

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChesspain

That's interesting, since according to PS it is a top 20% hand.

But maybe that's not strong enough to open 6-handed?

When I play online my LJ PFR is 15%. I don't feel nitty comparing my stats to other players. K9s is kind of on the edge. KTs is clear open and K8s is a clear fold.

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