Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-11-2021, 12:06 PM   #51
Yeodan
veteran
 
Yeodan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Belgium, Antwerp
Posts: 2,679
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
HU is so so so different than multiway; the more players in the hand, the more snug you 're supposed to play.
snug meaning?
we don't like betting for value?


Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
It seems to me that AQ is a showdown value hand 4 way in this board texture in which we are up against made straights, two pairs and strong draws. The fact that we hold the Ad makes it more interesting so I can see this being a factor weighing us towards betting.
I think it's very likely a straight or two pair is going to be raising us on this flop.
If someone raises us I think we have to strongly consider folding, why would they suddenly start bluffing multi-way?
We're also saying we're very strong by betting, so people should be less inclined to start bluffing into us.

Say we check, villain checks behind and then one of the other players bets.
Is that going to make the hand easier to play?

Even if we check, villain can just bet 3x and still get all the money in.
Are we ever check/folding on this flop? I'm certainly not.

I'm not sure at all what the proper response would be to a raise after we bet.
Depends on the player and the sizing a lot.
It's gonna be hard to make a decision then, but it's hard to make a decision on this river now as well, so what do we really solve by checking the flop?

By checking we do give hands like KQ, QJ, QT free equity and we miss a lot of value against them.
There's also a ton of draws that would pay us to see another card.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
I don't know what's the right way to play
+1

I don't think there has to be a right decision here.
Solvers use mixed strategies all the time.
Both checking and betting could be perfectly fine here.
Yeodan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 12:38 PM   #52
OvertlySexual
old hand
 
OvertlySexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,455
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Say we check, villain checks behind and then one of the other players bets.
Is that going to make the hand easier to play?
Snug means tighter.

The point is that AQ is neither going for 3 streets of value nor playing for stacks. If you bet and you get raised by JTdd is a bit of a disaster, because you will have to fold and sacrifice a ton of equity. So, for me, the goal with a hand like AQ in this spot is to realize my equity.

I would definitely bet all sets and strong draws like AKdd and AJdd; you aren't supposed to be doing a ton of betting multiway & OOP. Now, if you are in position, it's a different story.

One strong reason this might be a bet is because we are holding the Ad. Not sure though.
OvertlySexual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 01:39 PM   #53
adonson
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 55
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'm not fond of building big pots preflop when there is a very good chance I'll be OOP and deep to a difficult player. I would limp/evaluate, and I actually think it is fine to nitty fold this hand in EP if I'm often going to be put in a difficult situation. GcluelessNLnoobG
Is there a UTG+2? Is V second-to-act after you? Your position relative to V has to change your preflop strategy. I'd feel better raising AQo preflop if the V was in the small blind. When you are out of position against an aggressive player who can outplay you on the flop, you have to tighten up pre. Your best strategy here is to request a seat change. If you get the seat directly behind V, then you'll be in position all night against someone from whom you can learn a lot.
adonson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 02:15 PM   #54
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,190
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If you think I'm trolling, report me.

Otherwise, I'd love to hear why the above thoughts are so illogical.

GcluelessillogicallythinkingnoobG
How about reflecting on the fact that the posts you write on this forum is so freaking far out to lunch that people sometimes ask themself if you are trolling?

That would be a huge eyeopener for many people.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 02:18 PM   #55
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 8,078
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
How about reflecting on the fact that the posts you write on this forum is so freaking far out to lunch that people sometimes ask themself if you are trolling?

That would be a huge eyeopener for many people.

Not to mention I’m not Karen here and going to report people for an opinion i don’t like. That’s lunacy.

But what is also lunacy is going from “good players disagree on a particular situation” to “clear evidence that we should consider open limp AQo in the HJ”. Like holy crap, reach more
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 03:00 PM   #56
RottPhiler
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 238
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Yeah, the A makes this spot very interesting. That's precisely why I posted it here. Holding the A reduces the number of flush combos that villain could have and weights it more towards calling the river. It's a tough spot because villain could do the exact same thing with a whole bunch of hands including all two pairs, all sets, all straights, all flushes, and the naked K for value. That's why the river K was such a bad card and made this go from easy slam dunk call to tough decision. Still, holding the A is the key difference that makes this a call.
RottPhiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 03:06 PM   #57
RottPhiler
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 238
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
I'd say checking this on the flop with 3 players behind us is pretty terrible.

If we consider villain to be a good payer (which I honestly seriously doubt from the little info you've given on him) why would he ever start bluffing into 3 people?

So yes, I'd want to bet here for value.
Assuming most draws have no reason to start betting multi-way.


I solved this spot (GTO+, so HU solve) with a tight BB range and a semi-wide villain call range.
The solver is choosing to bet this flop 60% of the time and 71% of the time with our combo specifically.

Given the option between 33%, 50%, 66% and 100% pot,
the solver is going with 33% - 29% of the time
and with 50% - 28% of the time
So I think sizing 50% pot here is just fine.

I think we have even more reason to bet multi-way, so I'm definitely betting here.


On the turn I think both checking and betting is fine.
I might prefer checking against our opponent, since we know he's just going to start bluffing into us, so if we check it's with the intention of calling.

The solver is actually only checking 25% of the time on the turn here.
And only 5% of the time with AQ

So against an opponent who isn't a total maniac, like the one we're playing, betting is probably better.

Solver likes betting 33% or 66% pot. With a slight preference for 33%

Once we check and villain bets, solver is calling our combo and most other AQ combos, raising with AQo where the Q is a diamond.
I've assumed we check range for the solver.

(Solver villain is never betting A8s on the turn, in fact he's only betting 12% of the time.)


On the river against the opponent you've described I think we have an easy check/call again.
You've described a player who is constantly playing with a range that is too wide and then turns a large part of that range into big bluffs.
That's exactly what's happening here, so why would we ever fold against this player with a good bluff catcher?

Don't get me wrong, I'd snap fold this against any other player.
But against the player you've described, I'm never folding my bluff catchers.
I know several of these players in my live games, and I'm NOT folding to them, NEVER!

Solver is folding our combo 100% of the time, so folding is probably not a huge mistake.


It's calling and folding some weird stuff though.

- Calling any flush
- Calling with a JTs straight 92% of the time
- Folding a set (KK/QQ/99/88) 44% of the time, mostly 99 at 83% for some reason.
- Folding two pair (KQo, 98s) 75% of the time.
- Calling TP (AKo) 100% of the time.
- Folding middle pair (AQo, AQs, QJs, QTs) 90% of the time, only calling QJs 43% of the time.
- Calling weak pair JJ 100% of the time
- Folding weak pair TT 89% of the time

Do you really think folding this much against this villain is optimal?
Where would you find your calls?

Thank you very much for solving this. This is very insightful and helpful. I had a gut feeling that folding on the river is not too much of a mistake against a generic opponent. So this validates that and also my actions on pervious streets. I mean, this is precisely how I want to play poker overall.

However, folding against this opponent was indeed a mistake. If this was 2/5, it would be a different story. Since it was 1/3, I had to adjust to a table of fish, and then adjust back to playing real poker against this dude. So, there was some mindset issues going on to.
RottPhiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2021, 09:32 PM   #58
wheydacheese
veteran
 
wheydacheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,033
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

Didn’t get to read allll the way through but I will echo that this is a really bad flop for us to be cbet ting given position texture and multi opponents this hits their range much better and I will add that having the Ad here makes me even less inclined to cbet since we block every AdXd combo they can call with which is not an insignificant % of hands we beat that peel flop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
wheydacheese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2021, 03:14 PM   #59
Ranma4703
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: she / her
Posts: 2,852
Re: Big River Decision against competent LAG

I highly recommend people avoid using a heads up solver to understand 4 way poker hands, you're gonna play waaaaay too loose and aggressive. If you want to try something silly like that, you need to assign villain a range 3x weighted towards value hands instead of air. And once you do something like that, you're gonna see us check the flop a lot of the time.

In general, many people in this thread show signs of GTO poisoning; misapplying GTO concepts. OP especially, you seem to be misapplying a number of concepts.
For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
5x is always my standard open if I'm first in. I do that with AA and my trash. If there are limpers ahead of me, I might open higher. 5x is not too large, as I almost always get at least 1 caller, and it's often multi way. 5x is not too small either, because if I start opening 10x with my AA, then I will have to light money on fire by opening 10x with 88, 67s, etc.

If I choose to bet the flop, I almost always bet half pot or 2/3 pot. So, essentially I ensure that my opponents have zero information from my bet size.
you shouldn't be opening 88 or 67s pre from the BB with a button straddle, unless you're only doing it ~10% of the time, probably not even that.
Your last sentence shows you're thinking about this wrong; you don't pick one bet size and use it across all flops, you pick 1 (or two or three, depending on how much complexity you're able to hold in your head) bet sizing PER FLOP to use with your range, which accomplishes the same thing without making you bet half pot on a board like 255r where you want to mostly minbet or quarter pot bet.
Ranma4703 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive