I have been thinking lately on now that if you a playing a general TAG strategy at 2/5 and looking to exploit more situations and increase my winrate that I do not really implement that much triple barreling into my arsenal and thinking and looking back at my HH's that I do... well they typical run with GREAT success.

Obviously I'm not looking to triple barrel against your typical calling stations as you can just take them to value town relentlessly and get your paycheck that way, but I have been starting to think... "How would I outplay myself?" and "What situations do I not feel comfortable in?" and both of these seem to keep coming back to when I am really put to test on the river, and I am sure many other reg's are too (as the main fact that you are not put in that many river situations vs flop situations so naturally ones flop play will be A LOT more experienced than a individuals river play)

It seems to me know that when playing against a reg who is seemingly competent that it would be +EV to empty the clip against a player calling your c-bet when you pick up ANY equity on the turn card reasons being -

-Combats being floated
-Equity being increased on turn
-FE to the max on a river shove - think about how scary it seems
-I see way to much someone firing a good double barrel then just checking the river when almost ANY bet would have got the villain off his weak hand
-Your regular player is almost NEVER put in these situations
-You are going to hit the river and get paid off a decent amount
-Your image

I am much more willing to implement these at 2/5 vs thinking players than at 1/2 where you can play straight up and kill it, I am looking at ways to improve my winrate and be able to exploit basically someone playing versus me.

Example --

You pick up 67ss on the button

limp, limp, you bump it up to 5bbs on the B, fold, call.

Pot (12 bbs)

Flop -
Ks 8h 2c

A great flop to c-bet and generally it will take it down versus your average players but your thinking player will realize this after a while and start to float you.

Check, you bet 8 bbs, call.

Pot (28 bbs)

Turn - 4s

An OK card, but not the best to double barrel, but here agaisnt the thinking player I would be thinking this is a GREAT card to barrel around 20bbs and empty the clip on the river REGARDLESS of cards (unless the very very worst)

I mean lets say you are villain in this hand, if you are facing this line the pressure is on now and how would you react to a river shove/large bet? I just can't see average thinking villain being able to react and adjust to triple barrels as shortly put, they are never put in these hard situations.

How about a offsuit 4 or a not connecting spade? I still see them as great cards to empty the clip.

CLIFFS -

When picking up ANY equity on turn versus a thinking player it's time to grab your balls and empty the clip.


This is shorty put and not really well constructed post but I just wanted to get some thoughts from you guys, thanks!

The 4s turn card in your example is better than just an OK one for your hand to double barrel, and I think you can do it profitably against more players than just decent thinking ones.

It has less a lot less to do with triple barreling than it does with the times you backdoor the effective nuts. You can do some serious damage with these kinds of hands after barreling your way to the river, and sometimes tilt people in the process.

Against a thinking player, bluffing certain river cards should definitely be part of the plan too. The three non-spade aces are the only ones that really make sense to me here, so its still not a big component of why you want to bet the turn as compared to the 12 actual outs your have, and obviously the immediate fold equity.

Works best against chasers on obvious draws > semi-nits > thinking players >>>>>>>>>>> TPGK = c/c three streets stations.

I often use this line when I'm on a draw that I'm pretty sure dominates V's version of the same draw, as I stack them when we hit, and they fold their weak pair with a draw unless it hits 2p+ OTR.

Emptying the clip regardless of our opponent's range/tendencies is a horrible idea. Instead, put your opponent on a range on every street and estimate what hands out of that range will fold/call/raise against your bet. Generally the wider/weaker your opponent's range is on that street the more willing you should be to barrel.

In the example that you gave I would double barrel even without turned equity since I would expect V to 3bet AK pre and peel flop with 8x, most pocket pairs, and maybe even some A high hands and stuff with backdoor potential like 76hh or 79ss, all of which are well within his range preflop BTN vs BB. If called I would expect his range on the river to be quite strong, something like Kx and good 8x like A8, so I don't think a river barrel would be profitable unless I thought he would fold too many of those hands to a river barrel or I thought his range on the river contained a lot of the same weak hands that were on the turn.

Ed Miller's newest book has gone over this very concept.

Not necessarily. Without more information as often the case in LLSNL, a closer to GTO approach can be more effective.

^ I think it depends on the limit. Against a thinking player at 1/2 it's probably more profitable to play exploitative on rivers and assume most won't get away from Kx. At 5/10 and higher I can buy the argument that GTO is ok against thinking players because some of them will get away from weaker Kx.

Yeah, like I said I really would only start using this on 2/5 thinking players and up.

I feel like the thinking 2/5 players are so used to playing the river straight up that 3 barreling would absolutely crush them, then they adjust the times your backdoors come in so on etc.

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Something else I have been thinking about with triple barreling it pretty much makes your image great if it works or even when it doesn't work (IF YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR IMAGE AND KNOW WHAT IT IS AND ADJUST ACCORDINGLY***)

For example when it works and you don't show well everyone assumes you have the goods and you can continue to blow people off hands, great!

When you get caught your image is slashed and you can now take WAY more player types to 3 streets of value with your value hands where before this image you might need to check a street in order to get the other 2 streets of value where you are costing yourself a lot of potential money here.

I realize the above is a lot more on the topic of image but I don't really see many other moves that can have such a drastic effect on your image and you can make even your failed 3 barrels profitable if you are able to adjust correctly.

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This is such a generalized question it can't be answered. Deciding to 3 barrel bluff on a thinking player can mean so many different things. Thinking players can be sticky, passive, loose, tight. Using the term "thinking player" doesn't really mean too much.

I was under the impression this thread was about playing against thinking players who we don't have detailed reads on but yeah against thinking players we play with on a near daily basis we should be trying all kinds of different things to find out what parts of their game are exploitable. This includes delay c-betting, check-raising, 3 and 4betting, double barreling, floating, leading, over betting, under betting, and yes triple barreling as well.

My LLSNL experience is still fairly limited compared to online play, but so far I definitely disagree. I have yet to sit at a single table where I felt anything remotelty close to a GTO bluffing frequency was the most +EV.

Until proven otherwise, I think its best to assume an unknown opponent is making typical rec player mistakes, which means betting/raising too small and too narrow, and checking/calling too wide. 3-barrel bluffing in anything less than an absolutely ideal spot seems like a massive leak against the vast majority of the player pool.

Having 3 barrel bluffing in your tool box is an effective tool. So few people do it that you can get lots of folds. However, it is like a table saw. If you don't know what you're doing, you can lose a limb very easily.

If you read SABR42's posts in the chat thread, you'll see how someone who is playing at a high level does it. First, he's looking at villains that have a capped range that is relatively weak compared to the board. To do this, you actually have to be able to put villains on tight ranges and hand read well. Next, he has a good image. He's not seen getting out of line much, if at all. The temptation of bluffing is great. I don't think Harrington is too far off when saying you want to run a major bluff once ever 1.5 hours. At a fast table, that about once every 45 hands. If you decide you need to bluff every 5-10 minutes because you're a superstar player, you're going to get looked up fairly quickly.

After that, you need to tell a plausible story. If you raise pf, bet a 632r flop, see a 2 on the turn and the backdoor FD hits on the river, nobody is going to believe you had it the whole way. Finally, the money has to matter on the river. If the pot is 380 and you have 30 behind, you're rarely going to get a fold. SABR42 is making PSB+ on the river to drive the fear factor.

Others have made the point that you need to do this against players that recognize danger. A calling station doesn't care what you're representing. At the same time, someone who is wildly over rolled for the game is just going to gamble with you. You need someone who can develop MUBS that has a hand that is OK, not good.

One other point. A purpose of playing GTO is to make the villain indifferent to calling or folding. In a very simple case, let's say that you make a PSB on the river. If the villain's chances of winning is 33.3%, he is indifferent to calling or folding. He wins 2 PSB 1/3 of the time and loses 1 PSB 2/3 of the time if he calls every time. If he folds every time, he wins nothing either. On the other hand, we win 1 PSB no matter what choice he makes.

Getting to that point is well outside the scope of LLSNL and probably all but the absolute highest level of live play.

AnalogyotY

Admittedly, I just tread the thread title. The answer is no.

Some people fold too much.

Some people fold too little.

Some people fold about as often as they should.

You should employ different tactics against each of these villains.