Playing $2/$3 9 handed live cash game

Utg villian who has been limping opens to $10 (3.3bb) with approx $220 (73.3bb) behind so hero expects villian is strong
Utg +1 calls
mp calls
button calls
Hero calls with Ad8d from SB with $180 (60bb) behind
Bb calls
6 handed to flop with pot of $60 (20bb)
Flop 9d8c4d
Hero flops the world. Hero tanks and checks
Utg villian bets #40 (10bb)
utg +1 folds
mp folds
button folds
Hero calls rather than checkraising, fearful of getting stacks in vs a set and also wanting to give bb and chance to put more money in
bb folds
Pot $120 (40bb) heads up
Turn 5d
Hero thinks about donking as this is a scare card for overpairs, but decides to go for a checkraise wanting to get as much money as possible in on the turn.
Turn goes check check
River 4s
Hero overbet shoves for about remaining $150 (50bb) trying to look bluffy and get value that was missed on turn, possibly from a hero call by villian overpair
Utg villian snaps with 9c9c for a fullhouse, hero is stacked.

My main interest is in checkraising the flop or donking turn? Also thoughts on the river overbet? Thanks

c/r flop or calling is fine. my decision is based on villain which helps me decide how i can make the most with my equity.
as played, lead turn $60-80. stacks are going in sometime so better to bet the turn. overbetting river gives more reason to fold, but likely he wont with top pair.

Fold Pre. If you need why:

+ You have 60BB effective, not enough odds to play a drawing type hand.

+ You are SB, OOP to play a drawing type hand, not a great one either.

+ UTG raised when he normally limps.

+ You cannot call comfortably on Flopped A.






As played:

Flop: x/c

Turn: x/c or x/r

River: Shove if PSB left, if not, I bet 2/3 - 3/4.

Lol at fold pre I mean come on 5 ways closing the action for 10$ if you aren't calling here with a8 suited you might as well pack it up.

As played if you think he is strong just call flop, but turn you have to bet. I think all the money is getting in here either way, FYI. River if you think he has an overpair you prolly want a medium sized value bet if you want him to call which you do


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EDIT: How little BB's do you need to have to not do this? (call 3.3BB in SB that is.)


You call 3.3BB with A8s with 60BB stack in the SB? What? Half the time you're calling you're dominated by Ax? Am I missing something. Intrigued~

And when an A hits how you gonna get paid by non-ace pairs in multiway pot? Then when it hits, as stated more than half time you're dominated. You essentially have to luck two-pair or a flush? What am I missing? Who's paying you top pair 8s? (they all in with 7s or less?), hairy when turn and river both are higher cards. Hairy when someone continues on board that has an 8 high card. How do you have implied odds on 60BB to try to hit nut flushes? You rarely will hit by turn, and will rarely get paid when do? You're gonna have to commit stack many raised pot flops to maximise flush-draw equity? How many times 36-43% equity at best is worth it? Spot seems marginal at best, and that's just for the flush spots.

Follow up: Without initiative you wanna play pot OOP with A8s 60BB effective in raised pot?

Why?

This.

Then...

Lead or x/r the flop.

But why? How little BB's do you need to have to not do this? (call 3.3BB in SB that is.)

So you didnt want to check raise the flop for fear of getting it in vs a set.

You have the nuts on the turn and check.

The river pairs the board but you shove and are no longer worried about the set that scared you on the flop and now has a boat?

There are 4 betting rounds in hold em. You put money in on the 3 streets when behind and nothing in when ahead. Pretty ugly hand.

I don't know why you are worried about V having a set.... you said he normally limps but raised this hand. If he normally limps, I would think he would sometimes lime the 9's and sometimes raise it. So its somewhat unlikely he has a set, even tho he ended up having one here, and its more likely he has overs or over pair. Also, as you are so short stacked you want to get the money in now. You should be fine winning the pot now and not have to make your hand. If you feel v will often c-bet then check raise all in is the way to go. If you think he will check back his AK type hands, then you might want to lead, but because of your small stack, its somewhat awkward on your options. You can lead pot then ship turn, over ship it, or make a 1\2-2\3 psb. It mainly depends on what you think the v is gonna do when you donk for a decent sizing being short stacked. If he raises donk bets often, which I doubt as he normally limps, implying a more passive approach, then you can bet 2/3 pot and shove over any raise. Either way, you are trying to get it in on the flop.


As played, once you make your hand, you can not check. When it goes check check: that's a disaster. So if you didn't get it in on the flop, the pot is now 140, and you have 140 left, ship it if you think hes super strong, or break it up over turn and river.





Masta--

If you're fearful of a set why not bet turn and get value from a set ? Also why jam river if you're fearful of a set on the flop ?

This. You guys are dismissing the newb poster way to fast.

A8s needs to have 12.5% equity if we are calling $8 into $40. Even sixhanded that's gonna be close when the original raiser is only opening a top 10% range, it's downright bad if he's tighter.

And that's assuming the BB always calls/never squeezes and we always realize 100% of our equity. Realistically we probably need somewhere in the realm of 18-22% equity 6-handed to call this raise. Our calling range in this spot should be more like 99-JJ, AJs/AQ, imo.


As played, for the love of god, lead that turn. Villain is checking back soooo often and likely completely shutting down if a 5/6/diamond falls on the river.

Thanks guys

Basically I should have donked the turn.

Preflop I'm happy to check fold to action if I flop just an A since I know I am often dominated by Villian. Also its possible the flop plays passively, since multiway pots tend to be passive, so I might see a free turn with nut flush draw. Plan was flop a monster (2 pair, trips (little scary since I can still lose to villian kickers), pair and flush draw) since I was getting 5-to-1 with nut flush draw. Admittedly its a bit thin with my shorter stack size.

Check calling flop instead of check raising also lets me see if BB flopped a set, sinceif I checkraise flop and BB shoves over me I'm boned but can't really fold.

I think I lost my mind a bit on the river since I'm more used to playing online and villian checking back turn was a disaster. Also this was in a strip club so lots of distracting stuff going on around.

x/r raise the flop, call is awful with your stack size

I'm not sure why everyone is dismissing the new poster either.

A8s vs UTG raise, even a small one is a very speculative call. You aren't closing the action as BB acts behind you. The pot is mutiway so you have no postflop fold equity whatsoever. You simply are hoping for a miracle runout that doesn't do what this one did and see you stacking off with your (obvious) nut flush vs a boat.

Why is this preflop call good? Looks fishy to me.

Now, I play short stacked frequently and I will sometimes flat AXs but only IP (BTN) when it is short handed and likely going heads up and raise is small. Then, with my image, I have some postflop skill advantage, some reasonable fold equity and a little equity to fall back on.

I'll also limp behind IP or complete SB with AXs to hit the nuts and stack a smaller flush or 2pair etc in multiway limped pots.

I'll make light 3bets with AXs when I think I have good FE preflop and FE postflop when called.

I'm never really flatting AXs purely for value vs a raise with only 40bb-100bb effective. I think that's -EV.

Maybe with 200bb+ IP vs a player who is a bundle of implied odds I might call A9s-A2s rather than bluff 3bet them but it is a rare player, even in my soft game, that can't see a 3 flush on board and isn't at least a little fearful that their small flush and worse is beaten by the nut fluh when the big bets come out. It just isn't a tremendously profitable hand because it is too obvious. Therefore I generally play my nut flush draws very aggressively in order to disguise my hand if I do make it. Therefore I'd check raise or lead this flop, lead this turn if I did just call flop and I'd be aiming to bet while drawing such that I got maximum fold equity while ensuring that hands strong enough to call would feel pretty comitted if my draw does come in and therefore feel obliged to pay me off.

For that aggressive nfd line to work you need stacks to be deeper so you can actually apply some pressure and so that the rare times you end up at showdown with the nuts you actually win a monster pot.

I'm completely with towriteair on this - call OOP preflop is bad.

Axs plays ideal in limp pots when you're in middle or late position after the flop. Limp pots lets other xxs in, raised not so much.

I open Axs for table image and balance; I open it so I get action on premiums and I'm not seen as nitty. But I do it in choice spots.

I'm only flatting in LP, when I feel I have a handle on my opponents, and it's profitable to play post-flop with them beyond just Nut-Flush Draw. And my cutoff is 110BB effective.
At 200BB+ I can call most spots with Axs on (small) opens against 2+ opponents, which implies I'm at least in MP.


47-1 You flop Two-Pair.

It's like 112-1? less? you flop flush.

You need stacks, and the notion that your opponents will stack them off.

/thread

^ yeah Mike does rather nail this hand down. FWIW I see players do this a lot in my game OP so you aren't alone. Just don't do it again

I'm also calling preflop thanks to almost closing the action in a multiway pot and getting a decent price (I'd love to be in position too, but at least our relative position is good).

I'd just check/shove this flop. We're about 50/50 with overpairs with a bunch of dead money in the pot, adding any FE whatsoever to that makes us a big favourite.

Can't keep expecting the raiser to keep betting on this scare card, and if we're going to get in stacks (which we'd like to do) we're probably going to have to bet the turn. I'd make a small bet on the turn (like $40) to try and get this ball rolling.

As played, I love the overbet shove on the river. Given these stacks, I'm pretty sure we'd have to feel committed to calling a shove after a bet with this hand, so just getting it in ourselves is probably best.

ETA: I'm totally cool with the preflop call. A big part of my goal in NL is to get into a pot for relatively cheap with a a hand that can make a big hand and get paid off. I don't know how everyone else's 1/3 NL table works, but $10 is *extremely* cheap at my typical table, thus the 6way result is not a surprise at all. Against the raiser's stack + callers we're already getting implied odds of 26:1; that's pretty decent, not to mention some shrapnel damage against other stacks that might occur postflop. We have good relative position to the raiser (we'll see his and most of the world's action before having to react). We only have one guy after us that can spoil our $9 call (which is for a mere 4% of our stack, our session isn't sunk if this lone guy left 3bets and we have to fold). And playing Axx flops is super easy: we check/fold them; we're playing for two pair+. If it's a mistake, I'm guessing it is a small one at worst (assuming we play ok postflop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

GG isn't it like 2% to 3% chance to flop 2pair or better?

Paying 4% of your stack is going to have you burn through nearly two stacks for every hit. You'll have to stack someone everytime you hit to break even or make a small profit.

I guess gii on every flop that gives you a FD could add some profit but I'm not sure how much....

I'll admit I'm not exactly sure what the percentages of flopping two pair+ are. But we also have to factor in times we just flop one pair and the flop checks thru and we make a hand on the turn, plus the times we flop a flush draw (which I think is fair to say is an automatic profitable result in most games), plus the times we take down the pot with the worst hand (like we could have done here in a lotta cases on the flop), etc.

Again, if it's leaky, then my guess is it is a very small one at worst. Having said that, we can't afford to play poorly postflop (and I don't like our flop or turn play in this particular hand, so that is something to consider when making marginal calls preflop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Pre-flop seems marginal but I probably call too. Hard to disagree too strongly with those who think it's a leak, but if it is it's a very small one.

I probably check/shove the flop. I don't hate a call, because it's hard to get him to fold better, but against a range of 99+ we're effectively coin-flipping, and sometimes get called by a K-high flush draw while also getting weaker overpairs or 9x to fold. We also get him to fold his equity, which is meaningful if he has two non-ace Broadway card, and he's unlikely to put a lot more money in the pot if he missed anyway.

fold pre

c/r flop

why are you worrying about sets when you block 88 and he never has 44? all you're doing by calling is putting yourself in a garbage spot where if you don't turn the nuts you will likely just have to c/f and forfeit ur hand despite having a ton of equity because villain will bet decent amt and stacks are way too short to leave any implied behind (and you're oop and won't be able to extract easily anyway).

you have 50% equity otf vs an overpair which is what he most likely has if he calls you and you have a bunch of fold equity. you called >5% of your stack with a8s from the worst position at the table and managed to hit a dream flop, if you're still hesitating then you really have no business calling pre.