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Old 05-24-2015, 12:53 PM   #1
edman218
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Bet-Size/Line Check

$1.5/4 game, blinds are 10/25 foreign currency.

MP is a superfish. Call a 3-bet all in with 2 overcards to a flop earlier, and went runner-runner wheel.

MP+1 is a super-LAG. Opens/3-bets a LOT. Got busted earlier and bought back in for a lot. Been a maniac since.

MP+2 is a super-calling station. He's always calling the super-LAG's raises/3-bets.

SB is an average non-descript player.

H is extremely card dead and has been folding a lot. Lost a semi-big pot to a river gut-shot that made no sense, and another big pot to a 3-bet by MP+1 when he had K6o and flopped top 2. Hero has 1900, everyone else covers. H recently 3-bet all in PF for ~1000 with AKo, got called by MP+2, who also had AKo, and chopped the pot for about 300 profit each.

MP opens for 150
MP+1 calls 150
MP+2 calls 150
Folds to SB, who calls 150
H is in the BB with AA
H raises to 850 (pot is 635 before the raise)
MP mumbles that maybe I have AK or AQ, then calls
Everyone else folds

Flop (2285): 9JJ
Hero?

1. Pre-flop bet sizing? Do I want more people in here? Should I 3-bet less? Shove? Should I ever flat here?
2. Infer anything from MP conjecturing that I may have AK or AQ? Is it more likely he has AJ?
3. Hero has about 1/2 pot behind on the flop. Hero?
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:24 PM   #2
Garick
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

1) PF raise size is good. Could maybe go even a touch bigger, given the player types in the hand and the fact that we're OOP.

2) No. He could, but more likely a PP. He's thinking of things he currently can beat, usually, when he makes a comment like this, not things that currently beat his hand.

3) Obvious shove is obvious.
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:25 PM   #3
Ragequit99
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

I think I would be tempted to shove preflop for 1900 since you've been seen shoving pre with AK. However, your 3bet is more than big enough anyway so I am happy with it.

Villain saying you probably have AQ/AK makes me think he has a pair rather than a weaker ace. He could have AK himself too I suppose.

I shove flop here. You crush 12 combos of KK/QQ vs 1 combo of JJ, 3 of 99 and 4 of AJ. Given MP thinks you have AK/AQ and you have seen him call allin postflop with overcards I think you can add 8 combos of AK to the hands you beat that call your flop shove. He can probably call TT too.

You crush 26 combos he can call flop shove with and are only behind 8 combos. Easy flop shove.
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:29 PM   #4
amh1121
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

1. I would 3b slightly bigger. 3x + dead money would say more like 1050, 950 probably works here.

Risk with 850 is that the superfish calls and the other players decide the pot odds aren't that bad, and the superfish's stack is in play, and that they'll have position on him. Obviously dependent on all stack sizes and table dynamics

2. Let him rationalise his call however he wants. Would not try to put him on such a narrow range if he's that bad

3. We saw him call it off with two overs before, I think I click it in blind before the flop even hits. If he has any piece or one over, he'll be calling
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Old 05-24-2015, 10:47 PM   #5
edman218
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

I'm a little foggy about the PF action. The PFR might have been 125 instead of 150 and there might have been 2 callers, not 3. At worst, it was 850 into 400. I remember thinking at the time that my 3-bet size was a bit on the large side.

Generally don't see many calls when 3-bets are the appropriate size. For example, if there's a PFR to 125, call, call, call, 3-bet to 425, Fv3B ~ 0. But (most) people are folding their trash against a non-braindead 3-bet size.

My PF shove with AKo:
MP+1 opens for 300
MP+2 calls
SB calls
H shoves a little over 1k

So it was a "reasonable" 3-bet all-in. If I 3-bet shove here for 1900, I don't think I'm repping anything other than AA/KK given how foldy I've been.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-25-2015, 02:15 AM   #6
QuickStealJR
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

I'd be more inclined to shove this flop if we had AK, with AA I check this all day.

We have less than half the pot behind, easy to bet turn or river if he checks back and gives him a chance to shove with whatever he has that bricked or hands he currently feel good about.
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:10 AM   #7
Ragequit99
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Yeah, I'm not against x/c either.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:24 AM   #8
kenyiwu
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by edman218 View Post


MP opens for 150
MP+1 calls 150
MP+2 calls 150
Folds to SB, who calls 150
H is in the BB with AA
H raises to 850 (pot is 635 before the raise)
MP mumbles that maybe I have AK or AQ, then calls
Everyone else folds

Flop (2285): 9JJ
Hero?

1. Pre-flop bet sizing? Do I want more people in here? Should I 3-bet less? Shove? Should I ever flat here?
2. Infer anything from MP conjecturing that I may have AK or AQ? Is it more likely he has AJ?
3. Hero has about 1/2 pot behind on the flop. Hero?
is this home game ?
coz it seems very very similar to mine !

i would have shove PF,
they knew that we are very very tight and only show big hands,
i would be happy to pick up the 600 if they all fold,
and also they dont like folding PF,

totally no idea what kind of range can we put him on ?
and no matter what we are getting it in on the Flop !
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:46 AM   #9
au4all
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by edman218 View Post
H steams out of the room
Why? Because someone besides you got lucky? Your bet-sizing (or line) doesn't affect the flop. One pair loses all the time at poker especially on a paired board.

One day a few weeks ago I flopped a set 4 times, once with aces, and lost all four hands. That's life, that's poker.
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:34 PM   #10
edman218
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all View Post
Why? Because someone besides you got lucky? Your bet-sizing (or line) doesn't affect the flop. One pair loses all the time at poker especially on a paired board.

One day a few weeks ago I flopped a set 4 times, once with aces, and lost all four hands. That's life, that's poker.
Because I lost lol. I know it's poker, but doesn't mean I have to like it I see flopped sets lose all the time, but this is mathematically similar to flopped top set losing to flopped bottom 2. Two Js left in the deck and he hit both

I was going to lose this hand either no matter what after the flop, so I'm not really worried about it. Just trying to get some feedback on the pros and cons of the 3-bet size PF. It's not like I can fold AA to any flop with so little behind.

Anyways, check the flop to get his stack in? Someone at the table did mention checking was better, but do I really want like KQ drawing for free?
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:58 PM   #11
Ragequit99
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

I think villain is passive and awful so shoving flop is absolutely fine.

I'd definitely be a little moody after this hand. I would never ragequit while I had cash in my bankroll though: This villain is going to give you the money back later for sure. I'd ask him when he played and try to be there every time he was
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:06 PM   #12
edman218
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
I think villain is passive and awful so shoving flop is absolutely fine.

I'd definitely be a little moody after this hand. I would never ragequit while I had cash in my bankroll though: This villain is going to give you the money back later for sure. I'd ask him when he played and try to be there every time he was
I had to go home anyway because I had work in the morning lol

But yeah, I definitely want to keep playing with him, although it's hard to play against him often with the maniac at the table. This is the first time I've seen him at the table. I don't think he comes often.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:19 AM   #13
amh1121
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by edman218 View Post
Anyways, check the flop to get his stack in? Someone at the table did mention checking was better, but do I really want like KQ drawing for free?
Depends on V. Against MP+1, as described, its possibly a check, since he is LAG. If he is generally aggro post-flop and is willing to bet a range (including bluffs) that would otherwise fold to your bet, c/c may be best

Against this V, who we have seen call with literally f*ck all, I think b/c always going to be best. He'll call super wide but is v unlikely to bet just as wide.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:13 PM   #14
QuickStealJR
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Re: Bet-Size/Line Check

My main argument against straight up shoving the flop is that it's still easy to bet turn or river to get the chips in. So I much rather give him the chance.
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