So I've been playing at this table (amongst a few friends/acquaintances), and there used to be a pretty decent standard of play. But 3 of the regs have since gone to Europe on a long holiday and in their place came 3 huge donks. We usually play 6-7, not full ring. We play 50 dollar buy ins, .2/.4 blinds.

So the table composition is 3-4 huge donks, one decent TAG reg and one maniac (plays LAG but plays almost every single hand, will raise with hands such as 24o), and i usually play TAG/LAG depending on the play at the table that day.

What confounds me at the table is that pre flop raises and 3 bets are not respected at all. There is almost no way to isolate your opponent. Half the time, if there are no raisers it's a limped pot almost all the way around, 4 to 6 people to the flop. And if you raise into a school of limpers say 3xbb+1 per limper in late position, pretty much everyone will call and it will still be 3-5 people taking the flop. Even 3 betting, if I 3 bet in MP with AK a lot of times I'll get 2-3 cold callers behind me.

While everyone loves a table full of fish, the schooling really tilts me. And pre flop raises of 3-5x bb don't work, don't manage to fold out anyone. Just builds a bigger pot. And when you miss the flop 2/3 of the time it's hard to cbet into 4-5 people.

For example, just yesterday, limpers all the way around to the maniac on the button made it 8xbb pre flop and the SB calls, and I knew they were both weak so I made a big raise, to 35xbb with 76s to squeeze. Everyone folded to the donk in the SB and he started saying he wants to go all in before everyone even folded. He ships it for another 120bb and obviously I had to fold. And he showed my friend what he had and afterwards I was told it was a5o.

Another hand yesterday, I made it 8xbb pre flop in the CO with AJs, there were 2 limpers behind me and I get 3 callers and eventually the winning hand shown down was 75o in the big blind that flopped bottom pair and turned 2 pair.

The donks constantly limp or just call raises with anything from J6s K2s 85s 78o 67o 34o to AA/KK/AK/AQ in any position, and pretty much never ever 3 bet. So it's almost impossible to place anyone on a given range based on pre flop actions.





Sorry for the TL;DR. But how do I play at this table? It's almost impossible to isolate and get to heads up pre flop or even on the flop. Is the only way to play to just wait for a big hand pre flop make it big pre flop and when I connect on the flop play with a big hammer? What about when I miss? Continuation betting into 4-5 calling is a sure way to doom. So I should only be value betting, ever?

Your complaining about playing in the easiest game possible.

Value bet and abc poker all day. Don't squeeze light at a fishy table.

Sorry, I don't have a lot of experience at live poker. This is pretty much the only live table that I've ever played at. Is it standard at live tables for PFRs to be 8xbb or bigger? When everyone is 100bb deep. Currently pre flop I play very tight in EP and loosen up in late position. With hands like AK AQ AJ KQ should I be making a big raise in LP when everyone has limped to me? Considering the fact that it'll probably just get 3-4 callers anyway and it'll be a multi way pot.

what is it about you and your play which makes you think you're better than the villains at the table?

I don't mean this sarcastically, but literally. Because if you can answer this coherently in terms of how your play is better, then the correct strategy should be obvious

I think more than the villains at the table, and I play a lot more aggressively. Take as many factors into consideration as I can. Pre flop I would think about position, hand strength, villain's likely hand ranges and their play style (although the water gets murky here with these guys.. generally I won't know much about their hand ranges until I can narrow it down OTF), and have a certain plan in mind for most flops. Take into consideration pot odds after the flop, bet sizing (for example if I think villain is on a draw, I would give him the wrong odds to draw at it and punish him for chasing the draw down 2 streets, standard stuff).

I'm not a phenomenal player by any stretch, but I read, post hands and practice online as much as I can and I'm trying my best to improve. I've only started playing seriously a few months ago. I would have to say I'm not very good at reading people live either, except by bet sizing.

I want to improve so badly and I feel like this is such an easy table to play at but somehow I'm not killing it consistently. Like last session I was only up 30bb after 4 hours of play. Anyone has any suggestions to improve my live play? Any threads I should read, any advice? Anything would be appreciated guys, any criticism too. I have so much motivation I just don't know where to direct it sometimes..

Mostly you need to understand the fundamentals of poker to kill a game like this.

A lot of players learn ABC well enough to do okay, and then assume they should be able to destroy really bad players. But in order to destroy really bad players, you have to understand what they are doing, why their bad play is wrong, and what you should do differently to exploit it.

If you are at a table where people are limping in and often calling raises with nearly any two cards, then, yes it should be easy to kill. But you need more than that -- what do they call with postflop? only really good hands? All kinds of nonsense? Do they spew with awful bluffs, or are they just terribly loose passive, calling down almost everything, but never betting or raising without a great hand? Do they play opposite, betting strong when bluffing or drawing, but always slowplaying good hands? Do they give up to cbets too often? Do they cbet the flop 100%, because that's how the pros do it, but then give up most of their hands to a raise or a turn bet?

Bad players come in many different shapes and sizes, and you play each kind differently by finding out what their game plan is, and then tailoring you own to maximize your profit from their errors.

Don't worry so much about getting them to fold. If you can't get them to fold, they are giving you a license to take their money. Not recognizing that and how it works, is a sign of you not understanding the fundamentals of poker. Having them call hands they shouldn't is *good* for you, not bad, unless *you* are way too loose, and trying to steal/bluff more often than is balanced (hint, stealing a lot works well against too tight or weak tight players, but backfires against calling stations).

Best kind of tables to make money at. Value bet to death, don't bluff except continuation bets heads up. Raise big pre, raise to 10xbb or even more to get 1-3 callers. Flop tptk and bet bet bet.

you've pretty much answered it in a roundabout way. My #1 learning about playing tables full of fish is that.....

you don't make money getting fish/donks to fold the best hand, you profit by getting them to call with weaker hands.

So...how do you do this?

you play a tighter range of hands
you play them more aggressively
you use position properly
you fold in the face of aggression
you value bet the living **** out of tptk and above

once you're sure of your villain you can put in the occasional bluff post flop when checked to twice but for the most part, eliminate all fancy play and make the absolute maximum from your value hands

so yes, these tables can be frustrating to play at because a 6 hour session is 180 hands and it's hella easy in 180 hands to run card dead and not hit value hands and to get drawn out on by hands way behind.

but stick with it and stick to your blueprint because in amongst the +/-50bb sessions, you'll have a 500bb win every 4 or 5 sessions.

Play a tight range pre. Raise pre with 1010+ and aq+. In postion u can raise pre with 99+ and aj+, kq+.

So far since I've started playing at this table I'm up 3 BI, we've been playing for about 3 months, once a week. Downswing over the past month or so kinda left my confidence shakey. All of your comments have helped a lot. ESP wrath. You nailed it when you said it can be terribly frustrating, there are sessions when I sit there for 1 hour and fold every single hand, and when you do get AK or AQ 4 callers come along and the flop comes 78j. And I guess I gotta learn to be patient cuz online I'm multitabling 6max games and its so much faster. Thanks for all the advice guys. Helped a live poker n00b out.

And with hands like 56s-qjs and suited one gappers do I just join the limp fest and Take a cheap flop and hope to flop something incredible like an OESFD/2pair/trips since the pot odds that are offered are so good most of the time? And if I do flop something not super strong like a naked flush or straight draw and its checked around to me do I just take a free card cuz there's no point semi bluffing cuz they're not gonna fold middle pair on a 58t flop?

Once again thanks for all your insight

yup, see cheap flops in position is the one bullet point I left off.

I have a homegame that plays very similar. I've been playing 15 ish times a year there for 3 years.

My average win rate is 27bb/hr at 1/1. But in 2011, I was 4bb/hr over 13 games. If you run bad, it's hard to win because so many pots get to showdown.

just commit to playing better poker than them and results will come

you sound more than intelligent enough to crush this game.

your not going to get a single piece of solid advice that will suddenly revolutionize your game and make you a llsnl destroyer. instead, you are going to slowly realize the dynamics of these games and how to best destroy them.

you already got some solid advice in terms of the importance of value betting your opponents to death, and the benefits of playing passively a lot of the time.

check this out. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-3-nl-1303247/ great read for anyone getting into llsnl.

This.

At the game OP describes, TPGK or better is essentially the stone cold nuts.

Also, don't bother c-betting post flop when you whiff. And don't bother semi-bluffing your draws. Pot control all draws keeping your implied odds as high as possible and as soon as you hit, pump money into the pot like you are pumping gas into your car...

Likewise, if the table is limpy limpy then you can profitably limp Axs and Kxs from all positions because the potential to overflush and stack your villain's will be high. Obviously this changes if V's are raising a lot preflop. but if they aren't, then you definitely want to limp hands that can crush the board and stack your villains.

On the surface, tables like this can be frustrating. That is usually only because you are only used to a "certain style" of poker. But poker is about adjusting, and at these tables, the adjustment is that you need to hit your hands and/or only play hands that have a lot of value and post flop playability.

So abandon the typical "raise pre and c-bet and take it down" post flop mentality and embrace the "value hand and prison rape them post flop when I hit" mentality.

I mean, there is nothing better than getting JJ+ at these tables. Raise a large amount preflop, get several callers, flop overpair, shove, get snapped called by low ball bs. Stack em, rinse and repeat.

or limp with Axs, flop a flush draw, hit on turn, prison rape your villains....

or limp with QTs, flop a FD + SD, hit SD on river, prison rape your villains...

Lastly, these tables are all about PATIENCE!!!! Be patient and wait for the right situation to present itself.

Position is number 1. Getting value is number 2.

AJo isn't the best hand in the small blind, but it's perfectly reasonable to limp it. Some people say limping is always bad, but they're wrong.

Think of it like this, with a marginal hand oop like AJo, KQ, QJ, if you raise you're getting called. So you could make it like 12bb pre, but you're getting called, are most likely missing the flop and having to check fold. If you raise small, you're getting called, missing the flop and having to fold. If you miss and cbet, you're probably getting called and are then building a big pot oop with nothing. On these sorts of tables you can limp/fold those hands from out of position, and put small raises in with them in position. You don't need to build pots pre incase you hit, because if you hit QJo on a Q8J board, A8 is usually paying you off at least 2 streets of value anyway trying to hit another one of his cards.

You need to think about it logically. If someone only ever raises with premiums, but raises small, we can call in position with suited connectors knowing that it will go multi way and we're gonna get implied odds when we hit cause the donk will stack off. Raising them to isolate is pointless because you can't isolate on these sorts of tables.

Also, everything dgi said is pretty much bang on.

These two points are extremely important, since you won't be able to bully people out of pots. You also need to remember that there will be times where you will be at a juicy table like this yet still end up down for the session, because of either dead cards or hands which get outdrawn. It's at times like this that you need to be able to maintain a Zen outlook and remember that poker is simply one, long session with breaks for the other parts of your life

Bring more cash to take advantage of potential opportunities.. . . . . .Until the nits arrive. . . . . and try to take over. . . . . .