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Old 12-28-2015, 02:17 PM   #1
nutbust
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Best sites for LLSNL

Hey 2+2 forum-ers,

I recently began playing live $1/$2 a few days a week at the casino to supplement my income. I've always played poker and had a decent amount of success at low stakes, but haven't invested as much time in my game as I should to maximize my potential. I've started reading a number of books, watching videos online, going over articles, looking at forum posts, listening to podcasts etc.. All the usual stuff people do when they're really starting to focus on their game.

I'm hoping to spend more time using resources the 2+2 community thinks are valuable. I was listening to the Duces Cracked podcast where Bart Hanson mentions his online training site crush live poker. I've heard about sites live Ivey League, VT, and Cardrunners before, but didn't think they were worth the investment because their resources are directed primarily towards online play (although I'm sure that would be helpful as well). Is it a fish move to pay for sites like this? If not which online sites are most applicable for improving results in LLSNL? Are there resources out there for LLSNL online that you might recommend? Any and all recommendations would be a big help. Thanks for reading!
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Old 12-28-2015, 03:03 PM   #2
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

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Originally Posted by nutbust View Post
Hey 2+2 forum-ers,

I recently began playing live $1/$2 a few days a week at the casino to supplement my income. I've always played poker and had a decent amount of success at low stakes, but haven't invested as much time in my game as I should to maximize my potential. I've started reading a number of books, watching videos online, going over articles, looking at forum posts, listening to podcasts etc.. All the usual stuff people do when they're really starting to focus on their game.
You are right that the list above is "the usual stuff people do." What is also true is that people usually lose.

Studying poker requires active participation. It is easy to say to yourself, "Yeah, I'd do that" after the book, video, article tells you what you should do. Reading the original post of a thread, then posting what you'd do without reading the answers is what separates the winners from the losers. You get instant (and sometimes brutal) commentary on your thoughts. That's how you're going to learn how to play poker. Because at the table, an author isn't going to be spoon feeding you the information you need and telling you the answer you should come up with.

Don't buy any more books, don't look at any more videos, don't listen to any podcasts. Start answering questions in this forum. When you get to the point where you're getting the consensus most of the time (and can explain why it is sometimes wrong), then start looking for more advanced information.

When you're at that point, you'll be able to judge whether the author knows what he is talking about or not. You won't need anyone else to guide you.
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Old 12-28-2015, 10:31 PM   #3
nutbust
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
You are right that the list above is "the usual stuff people do." What is also true is that people usually lose.

Studying poker requires active participation. It is easy to say to yourself, "Yeah, I'd do that" after the book, video, article tells you what you should do. Reading the original post of a thread, then posting what you'd do without reading the answers is what separates the winners from the losers. You get instant (and sometimes brutal) commentary on your thoughts. That's how you're going to learn how to play poker. Because at the table, an author isn't going to be spoon feeding you the information you need and telling you the answer you should come up with.

Don't buy any more books, don't look at any more videos, don't listen to any podcasts. Start answering questions in this forum. When you get to the point where you're getting the consensus most of the time (and can explain why it is sometimes wrong), then start looking for more advanced information.

When you're at that point, you'll be able to judge whether the author knows what he is talking about or not. You won't need anyone else to guide you.

Thank you for the response Venice. I appreciate you taking the time to send along some advice.

I certainly agree with a lot of what you are saying. Most people are losing players and not everyone can show a profit, if even a small one, playing this game. To your point about poker books, videos, articles etc. your argument seems to be twofold: 1) that it is difficult to replicate the ideas you reading books or hear in videos at the tables because you have to be able to situationally and logically go through those steps in the moment 2) It is better to be formulating your perspectives by going through the learning stages yourself and then going to outside resources to see what theory to incorporate into your game. For the most part I'm with you there. I do think there is some usefulness in the general ideas I'm reading in Sklansky or Harrington especially when you try to apply them to situations you read about on 2+2. Seems better as a resource to aid your thinking about specific situations rather than to take as gospel.

As per your advice I'll take a more active role on this forum by posting and replying to the content here. I'm sure that will help with individual decision making. For now I won't go investing too much more money in literature or videos, but I would like to take a multifaceted approach to improving my game. Other than grinding at the tables and posting on 2+2 are there any resources you could recommend that have helped you?
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Old 12-29-2015, 12:39 AM   #4
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

All he is saying is that there are diminishing returns on reading theory and studying if you're not actively trying to apply it. It can be easier to know what one should do than to do it. I really value Venice's posts and have probably learned more from them than any others I here..

My major poker resources are 2p2 and DC. In particular, I've benefitted a lot from Sklansky, Chuck/danzasmack, and some SSNL posters. I get frustrated with Harrington. I'd take his writing with a grain of salt. His approach seems pretty dated and not very profitable in today's games. He focuses so much on balancing his lines and so little on exploiting his opponents, which I think is just bad for 1/2. Hes also a super nit.
That said, I think his books do a good job of showing what standard NL is supposed to look like.
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Old 12-29-2015, 01:37 AM   #5
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
You are right that the list above is "the usual stuff people do." What is also true is that people usually lose.

Studying poker requires active participation. It is easy to say to yourself, "Yeah, I'd do that" after the book, video, article tells you what you should do. Reading the original post of a thread, then posting what you'd do without reading the answers is what separates the winners from the losers. You get instant (and sometimes brutal) commentary on your thoughts. That's how you're going to learn how to play poker. Because at the table, an author isn't going to be spoon feeding you the information you need and telling you the answer you should come up with.

Don't buy any more books, don't look at any more videos, don't listen to any podcasts. Start answering questions in this forum. When you get to the point where you're getting the consensus most of the time (and can explain why it is sometimes wrong), then start looking for more advanced information.

When you're at that point, you'll be able to judge whether the author knows what he is talking about or not. You won't need anyone else to guide you.
Cant agree more, after reading posts on the forums you will quickly learn what is good and what is bad.
First thing i learn from here was
Fold pre
It really solved like 80% of my problems straight up. After that i could spend time on situation that came up occasionly/ get reads in player etc.
As for books when i first started getting into poker big i went crazy buying and reading as much as possible, in the end i got too much information and when playing live it just overwhelmed me and ended uo making some crazy mistakes
I think just to focus on 1 thing at a time and practice that for a while till it becomes second nature, then move on to something else.
As you are only playing 1/2 you are going to get most of your money from value betting. So there is no need to think about stuff like balancing your 4bet/5bet ranges etc as i have seen people post that stuff here and you are just wasting your time and energy.
I would just focuson preflop play and flop play, that will give you a great start and there is plenty of situations too keep your mind activeand thinking.
I would also recommend posting interesting hands that you have played that week and see if you think you played it right compared too what others would do.
Lastly i would say is have an open mind,sometimes your thinking is right on the money other times it will be so far wrong it is comical. Just be able to take criticism on the chin and see there point of view.
While some people love to give advice, take it with a grain of salt the amountof players who are wrong is staggering but good for you as that is where you make your money
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Old 12-29-2015, 09:46 AM   #6
Hardball47
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Are we allowed to post sites here? I don't want to get banned.

Anyway, if we are, there's a great site that has a whole bunch of useful articles. One of them is specifically about how to beat 100BB 1/2 NL live.

I can pm you.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:45 PM   #7
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Are we allowed to post sites here? I don't want to get banned.

Anyway, if we are, there's a great site that has a whole bunch of useful articles. One of them is specifically about how to beat 100BB 1/2 NL live.

I can pm you.
Pm Me please
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:53 PM   #8
ZuneIt
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

I recommend going to the top of the forum page & clicking on "Best of LLSNL"
That's a list of COTMs - Concepts of the Month.
I would read not just those, but follow the posts of those who wrote them.

Those that I follow:
dgiharris
DK Barrel
ikestoy
mpethybridge [been playing 1/2 & 1/3 for a livin' for years]
Setsy
Venice10
CallMeVernon
AbqDave

I don't know that the others still post in LLSNL

And, although he's yet to have done a COTM! Garick

At the top of the page, you'll see [in the center] a 'search' tab. Click on that & then click on advanced. Put in the person's name, select LLSNL to limit the searches within this forum.

Another way to find good players who do not post often, but come out of the woodwork on occasion:

Look for original posts by any of the above.

I'm thinking of the few times where Garick posted a new thread & people I'd not see before came out of nowhere.

Here's the link:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-call-1528147/

Read that and you'll be able to tell, by how the posters respond to each other, who respects whose play.

There are also a lot of other serious posters, who work hard to improve and/or provide serious input into the threads.

Some that I can think of off the top of my head:
bip! [very good]
mtagliaf
AsianNit
kookiemonster
Ragequit99
Nice_Guy_Eddie
ohmyrage
paratrooper99
Willyoman
Hardball47 [I believe is a very good player]
squid face -a pro, but he's only started 4 threads in the 6 years he's been here. Plus, if you search for posts made by him, you'd have to wade thru all the posts he makes on ***Official "It Lives, It Lives" Chat Thread*** to find replies to posts about poker, because the chat thread is just a chat thread.

However, when you run across them...

He recently started a thread about how to play small PPs in EP & got almost 100 replies.

There are many others that give good insight that I didn't think of off the top of my head & were not listed, however, there are many bad apples in the forum. They're easy to spot - they reply to new posters by quoting the newbie's posts & saying things like: 6 pages of stupidity.

That's a recent example, where the new guy posted in the thread throughout 6 pages. It's either that, or the guy was saying everyone who posted in thread was stupid, because that's how many pages there were at the time.

Or they just rip the guy apart like he's some kind of hated stepchild. Just ignore it. It would be a shame to lose you, due to their ignorance, and find that you've done what I know people have done: form their own study group that meets a few times a month.

P.S. Take anything I post in a strategy thread with a grain of salt. I win, but I'm not a 'crusher', i.e., $20+ per hr at 1/2NL

Last edited by ZuneIt; 12-29-2015 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 12-29-2015, 05:01 PM   #9
Sneaky Pete
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
When you're at that point, you'll be able to judge whether the author knows what he is talking about or not. You won't need anyone else to guide you.
True dat.

And LOL with that popular list again. The day I make that list is the day that I would permanently quit posting.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:58 AM   #10
ZuneIt
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

As far as books go, mpethybridge, in his COTM, located here:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...poker-1171438/

states the following:

"If you haven't read “The Psychology of Poker,” by Alan Schoonamaker a half dozen times, then you have a major leak in your game. This book is the first and last word on the psychology behind different playing styles. Understanding its content is a major step toward improving the way you play against recreational poker players."

However, that COTM will be 4 years old come this February, so you may want to PM him & ask if he still believes that.

I have the book, but have only read it once years ago. I had planned on reading it again, but with playing ~110 hrs per month [retired] and everything else I've been doing to work on my game, I haven't had the time.

You can buy it used on Amazon & stick it in the bathroom, if he still recommends the book as a serious read.
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Old 12-30-2015, 01:47 PM   #11
Sneaky Pete
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

That's learning to run before you can walk.

Psychology book should go on the end as supplemental reading, nothing should come before fundamentals. You're making it sound as if it's the only book you should read.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:07 PM   #12
battagd1
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

I really like to watch some cash games and I feel that Live at the Bike has some good options. I like to watch their smaller games and run thru hands to see why certain players make certain moves etc...

Disclaimer: I think most players I have seen on that show play way too lose but it's still good for you to see
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:11 PM   #13
bwslim69
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

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Originally Posted by battagd1 View Post
I really like to watch some cash games and I feel that Live at the Bike has some good options. I like to watch their smaller games and run thru hands to see why certain players make certain moves etc...

Disclaimer: I think most players I have seen on that show play way too lose but it's still good for you to see
loose

But that is llsnl in a nutshell and what you will see in virtually any live game you play at those stakes
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:46 PM   #14
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

I think a lot of it may be west coast style of play

I think they play a little tighter in the Midwest and I'm sure it's different in the south vs east coast etc...
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:09 PM   #15
tightywhity
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Are we allowed to post sites here? I don't want to get banned.

Anyway, if we are, there's a great site that has a whole bunch of useful articles. One of them is specifically about how to beat 100BB 1/2 NL live.

I can pm you.
Can you pm me the name of the site too? I'm trying to play more often but wouldn't mind watching some videos.
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Old 01-02-2016, 12:13 AM   #16
nutbust
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Are we allowed to post sites here? I don't want to get banned.

Anyway, if we are, there's a great site that has a whole bunch of useful articles. One of them is specifically about how to beat 100BB 1/2 NL live.

I can pm you.
Would love a pm as well
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:57 PM   #17
OhNoHeDi'int
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Re: Best sites for LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
Are we allowed to post sites here? I don't want to get banned.

Anyway, if we are, there's a great site that has a whole bunch of useful articles. One of them is specifically about how to beat 100BB 1/2 NL live.

I can pm you.
Late to the party but I'd love to check that out!
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