Anytime I have AA preflop, my desired result is to get the largest pot I can get against exactly one opponent.

So you have to adjust your sizing to get to that goal, which can vary widely based on how the table is playing, the opponents, your image and your position.

And if you do end up in a 4- or 5-way pot with aces, just be aware of what that means for your chances.

Why is that your goal? Would you rather have 80% of $400 or 44% of $1200?

Obviously, that's an extreme example (we shove pre with $200 effective stacks and get 5 callers with A2s+,ATo+,22+ and any 2 Broadway), but the point is that your chances of winning going down does not necessarily mean your EV goes down. You need to think about this more deeply.

Another way to look at it is that sure, 50% to win with AA sounds meh but if your opponents are 25%, 15%, and 10% then i'd take that deal any day.

I would agree with you if we're talking about being all-in preflop. Run two hands through the equity calculator, and it gives you the numbers based on seeing all five cards.

If you're talking about a deep cash game, where most of the money is going to go in postflop, that's where you're going to have a lot greater chance of putting money in bad, if you're against 3-4 opponents. You're also probably going to lose more in those hands than you're going to win, on average, in the hands you win.

If you're an advanced player and very good postflop, I think you can afford to take more gambles by welcoming multiway pots, because you'll dodge the bullets. If you're just a regular intermediate or rec player, I think you're better off playing heads up whenever you can.

This is true for most hands. The only hands you're better off playing multiway are the ones that make big nut hands, because then when you hit them, you know you hit them and you know you have the best hand, no matter how many opponents. Suited aces, small pocket pairs, some connectors, etc. And if you miss them, you know you missed and can easily let them go.

Lol at complimenting the SB for anything other than maybe his cologne.

I would rather play for a lower EV in a HU pot than a higher EV in a multiway pot, because it is much easier to realize your EV HU than it is multiway, especially when we are usually OOP UTG. Of course if we are talking about your specific example of shoving pre, we take the 5 callers. But if we are playing post flop, I want to be HU or 3way at most.

I cannot recall a single session I crushed that didnt involve big multiway pots

Do these bug multiway pots often involve limping with AA? Maybe I should have been clearer with my post. Big pots multiway are fine, but it is higher variance. Small pots multiway are not fine. Opponent's ranges are too wide and we don't realize our equity often enough.

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And I'll bet that the big multiway pots you won were when you had straights, flushes or sets, not unimproved AA's.

of course, I thought he was implying that all he ever wants is a HU or 3way pot.

No. The subject was what kind of situations you want with AA, specifically.

Even though it's still a favorite preflop, no matter how many hands it's against, when you have to maneuver postflop betting (as opposed to being all-in and seeing all five cards), it's better to be heads up.

Then the subject is academic, right? Raising big with aces and getting one or two callers is good. Raising big with aces and getting a bunch of callers is good. What distinguishes these outcomes from the bad ones is within our control. What distinguishes them from each other sometimes just isn't.

Well, I would say raising big with aces and getting a one caller is better than raising big with aces and getting a bunch of callers.

I bet someone with poker tracking software could look up their stats in all hands with aces when x players see the flop. I suspect it’s positive in all cases, but the BBs/hand go down with each extra person seeing the flop.


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So long as stacks aren't super small or super big (and most times in 100bb BI capped games at live small stakes we are not playing super small or super big relative stacks), this would be my guess as well.

Gdoubtanyoneistrackingthisinfolive,soit'llhavetore mainaguessG

This makes sense to me. I admit I wouldn't be happy sitting with aces and having everyone fold and therefore only win $3, but IMO having only one caller would be ideal.

Each subsequent caller is probably making a smaller and smaller error. Which would mean that generally, each subsequent caller is good for us, but perhaps only slightly so. However, each subsequent caller increases the variance, and depending on stack size, could increase the difficulty of playing the hand correctly. So, I wouldn't be surprised, if the data was even collectible for multi-way pots, people don't fare that hot.

The whole topic has a gigantic "depends" due to effective stack size and hero edge over the field.

This. In a 100BB effective 1/2 game in which opens to $20 are common (and yes, these games exist) I'd prefer 5 callers to one, AINEC. Sure, one caller and an SPR of 4.5:1 is an awesome result, but we're going to have trouble getting stacks in on a ton of boards. With an SPR of 1.5:1 and 5 Vs, we're almost sure to get stacks in against at least one V, and probably more. Sure, we'll lose more often, but our EV will be higher.

OTOH, in a game with 150BB stacks and a standard open of $7 (and yes, these games exist too), I'd probably prefer GG's limp-reraise strat to opening to $7 and getting 5 callers, or opening to $10 and getting one (or worse yet, none).

I would really like to see some stats on this. I haven’t played online in a while so I don’t know what kind of stats the latest tracker software keeps. Is there a variable for number of players seeing a flop?


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There are no online games I know of in which a 10x open gets called 5-ways. This level of flopaholism is a live phenomenon. IDK if trackers work on play money tables, but that's the only place we'd see this situation online.

I'm actually the opposite.

If you're playing in a ****** filled game, I guess you'll do alright in 5ways for $20 each with average stacks creating lol SPRs where you'll have a difficult time not stacking off, because for every time you stack off against a set or two pair or whatever you'll also get some idiot to stack off with TP or whatever. But if your opponents are somewhat competent postflop, I think these are pretty meh spots. Course it also depends on what percentage of your stack you're getting in preflop; if you're putting in $20 of a $100 stack, sure, whatever, let's go eleventeen ways, but like $20 out of $300 going 5ways to a $100 pot with $280 stacks behind (SPR < 3) is pretty a silly spot (especially against competent opponents), imo.

With larger stacks and going multiway with a smaller raise, at least you create a more manageable SPR (typically one > 10) where you have time and streets to figure out what is going on before you face a commitment decision with your UI one pear. This is why having a pot limp around eleventeen ways is actually not a horrendous result. Not saying I prefer the small raise over everything else, as I'd still prefer a limp/reraise here.

But instead of taking a hard line either way, I would simply always leave it up to the OP. Do something preflop that sets you up in your own wheelhouse or a situation that you consider good. You'll probably do fine either way if you get the result you are comfortable with.

GimoG

GG, I gave effective stacks in my examples. In the first one, I even gave the SPR (1.5:1). In the second example, the SPR of an open with 5 calls would be ~7:1, which is an awful SPR for an overpair, which is why I said I'd prefer a l/rr in that game.

So are you saying that if you have AA you’d raise small enough that everyone calls?

Say your choice is 2 to the flop with a pot of $60 (make it $30) or 5 for the flop with a pot of $100 ($20).

Which would you prefer?


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No. Do you even math? Obv given the same PF pot size, we prefer less callers. Obviously given a certain percentage of effective stacks are in PF, we want as many callers as possible. Obviously the world of real games is somewhere in between, with the cut off point being different for different games.

Did you just use math as a verb?

This makes sense.

I understand this too, but I think this assumes a shorter-stack situation (30-50 BBs?) that wasn’t really OP’s question. If you can manipulate the pot so it’s big enough that you can shove preflop or on any flop, that makes for easy decisions.

I think in a normal 100+ BB deep cash game, the only way you’re going to get this is if you’re 3- or 4-betting, which again, is not really the scenario in question.

The tougher spot is figuring out what to do in a 100+ BB game with AA when you’re first in or there are only limps. That spot is the one I was envisioning when I gave my answer about preferring a heads up pot. If you’re deep enough that you’ll have to play on all three streets postflop, you want simpler decisions.

IMO


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