Again, I've already addressed much of this above.

I'm saying there is no difference in calling frequency for any "reasonable" raise. Obvious open shoving vs minraising is going to have quite a difference in calling frequencies. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're debating 4x vs 8x like that makes any difference in calling frequency, and it simply *does not*.

Getting away from a Q72 flop doesn't just apply to our opponents who have AQ. It also applied to us when our opponent has 77/22 (by the way, did a preflop raise eliminate those hands?).

If we can raise and get it HU against a lone loose-passive player that is calling too wide, great, awesome, the raiser is definitely punishing the limper. But if the we raise and it goes 6ways, the raiser is often going to be the one that is punished. Again, I'm not saying this isn't necessarily a -EV result (although for non wizards it most likely is); I'm simply saying we can do better.

GwecandobetterG

Oh I don’t know. I saw a dude open to $26 the other night with KK and AA and get plenty of action. Won a $1500 pot with AA unimproved shoving $500 on a 10-high flop. Somehow got called. I had the sadz as I watched it.


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Bringing it back to the OPs original question: the OP is from Limit. In Limit, we can often just go ahead and hurp durp raise our hands that have good equity against the field of callers because (a) we're much more likely to realize that equity in Limit since it is far easier to get to the river and (b) the amount of our stack we are getting in postflop isn't all that big a multiple of what we got in preflop (due to the limited betting structure of the game). These things do not apply to NL, and it is a very important distinction to be aware of when switching from Limit to NL.

GgoodluckOP,imoG

What I am saying is their is no unreasonable raise size, provided we can expect to get calls from strong hands and weed out weak ones. We have been talking back in forth in extremes, i.e. open shoving or limping but we haven't addressed the in between where actual poker gets played. Small raise sizes get calls, and if we can choose between 5 calls of a 10x raise and 5 limps, then I can see the argument that we might as well play for 1x because the variance is the same but amplitude at 10x is our entire stack.

Maybe 5x gets it done on some tables. But if we raise to 10x and get 5 calls, then we increase our raise size to 15x, or 20x, ANYTHING that gets the field narrowed. In practice, it usually isn't going to take crazy raise sizes to get the field narrowed.

On the second point, yes sometimes our villain will hit a set with 77/22. But to choose to go multiway rather than risk some villain maybe having a pocket pair that hits a set 10% of the time or less on the flop is just not sound strategy. Making a pair isn't easy to do, and one pair isn't beating us. Making two pair, a set, or flopping a straight+ is even harder, and we know going in that is what villains have to do.

On the final point, in a six way pot, the PFR is going to lose more than he wins against the field. But the PFR with AA is going to win more than anyone else, and we should play accordingly.

We're probably never going to see I2I on this, and that's fine. Hopefully the OP will get something out of two very different approaches to the same concept.

While you're seeing that he's raising huge with his monsters and thinking that when he raises huge he has a monster (ldo), the rest of the table is seeing that he's raising huge with his monsters and mostly just thinking he's a goofball.

And then at low limits almost nobody else will even notice anyway.

@dmccoy

Again, I've gone over a lot of this last post too.

It doesn't matter if we're playing at a loose table or tight table or amping up our raise size accordingly or whatever. If 5 people just got good playable hands, guess what, you're going 6ways to the flop (especially if there is an early caller). But thanks to being OOP, we have no idea what is going on.

I'm not sure if you mean AA postflop is going to (a) win more than it's fair share of pots against the field or (b) win more more than it's fair share of money against the field, but they could both easily be wrong. Obviously winning the most amount of pots is meaningless (we could win 7 out of 10 pots with a cbet, but if the 3 other times we get in our stack and lose we'll likely be a loser overall). And just cuz we have AA against the field postflop also doesn't necessarily mean we win the most money; if all our opponents are somewhat competent, a lot of the time any money goes our one pair isn't going to be good (and a lot of speculative hands will be trivially easy to play at this point making them +EV postflop). I can't remember which book does it (maybe T+P, I can't recall exactly), but they illustrate a toy example of where AK is clearly a preflop fave against a hand like 87s and yet the latter hand is clearly a fave postflop when any real money goes in.

But, agreed, we won't see eye-to-eye on this, and that's fine. Coming from Limit to NL is difficult, and the OP will have to make his own adjustments as he sees fit.

GgoodluckOPG

If amping your raise up doesn't have an effect on the number of callers you expect or the ranges you expect them to show up with then you're not amping it up enough. It is that simple.

No, it isn't that simple, and for all the reasons I've given above (i.e. number of callers to any "reasonable" raise size is not dependent on size, it is dependent on how many people have what they consider a "playable" hand).

I feel like I'm going in circles on this, so I'm going to stop and simply leave it up to the OP. If you think an EP 4x vs 8x or whatever raise size has an affect on the number of callers you get, then keep going with whatever magic number you think is working. If you don't think that, then do something else.

GcluelessraisingnoobG

Pay attention to what the standard opening sizes are at your table and choose a raise size that will get you 1-2 callers. There are tables where no one will ever call a $15 open unless they have JJ+ and then there are tables that will call $35 opens with almost anything.

GG,

I think we are overlooking the fact that poker is gambling, and in a lot of ways, we need to think about it like we would investing money, that is, that we are in it for the long haul, and we need to "put our money to work".

If we limp AA and get 4 callers, we have approximately $4 equity in a $10 pot, in other words, we are expecting to get back our original investment plus $2 more. Essentially, each of our dollars has earned another dollar. Conversely, if we raise to $20 and get 4 callers, we have approximately $40 equity in a $100 pot. Again, each of our dollars invested has earned another dollar, but in this case, we have put far more money to work.

SPR is a very reasonable concept when we are heads up and OTF. Beyond the flop and/or with multiple callers, the value of SPR as an indicator rapidly dissipates. We do not have to blindly stack off, regardless of the SPR.

I fully understand that different games are, well, different. I am lucky enough to play in a market where calls are extremely loose and pots get big fast. However, I have to say, if the only way for you to be able to get a good preflop raise in is to L/RR, then I'm sorry, but you are doing it wrong. I raise on average very close to 30% of my hands, and I play in a game with "no flop, no drop", and if I could find that raise size that would have everyone folding, I would happily bank that 13.5bb/hr (slightly less in 2/5, of course). If large raise sizes in your game gets all folds, then do it! Just do it more often. If they adjust, then you adjust. Play poker. I have never been in a game that I couldn't loosen up with bigger raises, even in Vegas.

I have respected your advice over the years, but I gotta say, I think relying on limp/reraises is just a way to avoid thinking about, and playing, poker. And if you ain't playing poker, well, then you're just playing cards, and if you're just playing cards, then the casino is the only winner.

Sorry for the derail OP, but the answer is simple. You raise AA to as much as the market will bear, that is, the size just below the "pain point" that makes all the other players fold. You should know this within 2 orbits, just by paying a little attention and experimenting a bit. If I get AA before that, I default to 20-25 in 1/2.

GL on the felt everybody!

B

+1 Great post

Oh, I agree that the value of SPR rapidly dissipates as we get multiple callers. But, unless we're postflop wizards, we're still going to get into extremely difficult spots in big pots where stacks are immediately at risk, and these are the *only* spots that matter in NL (every other spot is relatively unimportant overall). Having it go 5ways to a $75 pot with just $285 behind (a perfectly "normal" result in my game) is a *very* difficult spot. If you have no problems in this spot, then fine, do as you do. Otherwise, this one pot will likely define how you do in your session; you better get it right, as it renders everything you've done up to this point in your session fairly meaningless.

And I also play in a "no flop, no drop" room, and I'm all for taking down pots preflop (a very underappreciated result, especially if your opponents aren't complete morons postflop). But the best way to accomplish this result is typically not by opening, but rather by limp/reraising (plus it has the added benefit of taking down far much more dead money uncontested preflop).

And while I realize there are many different ways to skin a cat, this is a method I've been using, and both me and the casino have been consistent winners every year.

Ggoodluck!G

This is, of course, the exact spot I'm angling for since, as a rule, my opponents play worse in these spots than I do. I want the reputation that playing with me is ALWAYS playing for stacks!

A lot really depends on your opponents.

I've given this example before, but a month or so ago I see a limper and a poster limp to me, and I raise my AQ on the Button to a large $30 (thinking that will be enough to limit the field after this action). But the SB (a reg I have many hundreds of hours with) calls, and that invites the other 2 along, and all of a sudden we have a $120 pot 4ways with everyone less than $300 deep. The SB is a loose player, far too loose preflop, and can be a gambloorer postflop, so because of this he's an overall loser; but he also knows exactly what is going on. Q53ss flop is checked to me, I bet, and the SB folds QJhh. He did a nice job of reading the situation and correctly getting away from his hand postflop, and meanwhile I'm flying pretty blind (I end up sigh calling a check/shove from the poster, luckily I'm live against a big draw and fade it). If everyone in your pool is going to hurp durp stack off with TPnK- when the table nit is continuing into multiple opponents, this preflop result might not be as bad (as you'll make some money in these situations making up for the times a set or whatever stacks you). Otherwise, good luck.

GgoodluckG

Just as everything else in poker it depends. I've been at a table where I could open for 17.5x (really) and get calls if they had a hand "worth playing." The number of calls ranged from 0-6, based almost entirely on a a binary "hand I want to see a flop with, y/n" manner that was almost completely inelastic. I've been at other tables where my Vs' rages tighten up in a linear relation to raise sizing.

Usually it is somewhere in between and V dependent.

Having played live limit hold'em on a regular basis for about 34 years, I am very familiar with the diverse opinions within the poker world. Naturally it stands to reason that opinions on NL strategy is even more diverse. There certainly is a lot to digest within this post and I want to thank all of you for your input.

I've never been a fan of limping with any strong hand so I'll be continuing my raising ways I'll need to figure out what the proper size raise would be in my local games that would accomplish the desired result - i.e. 2 callers max. It seems to me that, like in any poker game, observation is a key factor. Observe and learn the best stadegy for your particular game.

Having played as high as 80/160 limit at the Bellagio during my pro years, I was always one of the best players in any limit game that I could afford. Now just getting into NL, I realize that will likely not be the case in most NL games for quite sometime. I feel a lot of these players have been playing NL for many years so it would stand to reason that at least some players (even at the 1/2 level) have become quite proficient. In other words, I will not be among the best players in many games, but one thing for sure, I'll be trying to hold my own. I have a lot of studying to do.

your opening raise size should be tailored to the pain tolerance of your opponents. Live players basically disregard bet sizes and operate on a "i like my hand or I dont" philosophy. The only time bet size really gets their attention is if it's extraordinarily large. 72 suited is just as much of a calling hand as AQo assuming thats in their range. So range them, then see what theyre willing to call, then bet that much. I've actually had players outright tell me theyre going to call me wider the larger I raise precisely because they wanted to crack my hand for a big pot, and then show me hands like J7s so I'd know they mean business.

Excellent point javi, thank you for your input.

Tempering your expectations is going to do you more harm than good. The name of the game is no limit. We're here to do unreasonable things. If you want to play reasonable limit then you can do the things gg and others are telling you to do but personally I would rather have a literal fight with an actual rake. Given your experience and the extent to which your posts make clear that you are approaching the game in a thoughtful manner I am super confident in saying that if you are not the best player at your LLSNL tables in very short order then what it means is that the game is bad. If you can't play aces the way most people are advocating then what it means is that the game is bad.

as a general rule I'd say most 1/2 players will call up to $20 preflop with any two suited cards, pocket pairs, and probably any ace. The only time you run into trouble is if you start trying to iso with 10x sizing, because you will of course attract all the big broadway cards from other players, so if you cant really play effectively vs that possibility then your preflop range needs to be strictly for value. If you feel you can outplay them postflop then you would be best with a more "standard" 4-5x sizing so you can room to navigate.

I guess that makes sense. Good point.

javi, if what you say is true, would that not indicate that it would make sense to be raising more in an attempt to cut down the field as much as possible? I realize that games likely vary a great deal, perhaps try $30 and see what that size raise accomplishes.

This certainly makes sense, but the more callers you have the tougher your task of outplaying them becomes. Would you not agree?

Depends on:

Stack depth
Position
Game flow
My image

It really depends on how you would define the term "outplay", to play devils advocate here.

When i am thinking about "outplaying" i am not neccesarily having huge multistreet bluffs with low equity into the field in my head as an example.