That's great. Playing opposite the way most people play is normally a good thing. Do you lead that much though?

We bet to either make a bigger pot for the times we win or to deny our opponent his equity. If we are WA/WB the implication is villain cannot call a shove and has little equity.

As for charging draws, it's a rainbow board and we hold blockers to the most likely straight draws.

The reasons cited for shoving here are bad ones.

Results.

I would have folded turn because we block 9T. River 56 gets there and another blocker to 9T or 96 so I would have folded there too. No flush draw possible.

Well played though glad it worked out for you.

Perfect example of why not to shove in a WA/WB spot.

Yeah, there are basically no hands I can beat except pure bluffs. Hard to be happy w/ my play as I still don't know whether it's a mistake against the general 2/5 population as a whole (w/out reads). There doesn't seem to be a consensus in this thread about that.

Someone took grandma to the bowling alley, because that was a slow roll.

This is a very specific spot as a blind read, as I assume TAG/LAG changes the entire hand. I thought you handled it fine. There is argument to do almost anything on the turn. Does a standard player play the trap game with an overpair and then fire into you on the turn after a c-bet? honestly, I don't think so. Any hand that had you beat pre-flop I imagine is putting in a 3-bet, or checking the turn after your bet and letting you fire another bullet. That's just my opinion though.

Probably not. I'd probably lead like $75.

NH OP.

Id would be a lot more concerned if villain led $75 or less. Like I said already, there wasn't a chance in hell this guy had an 8 and played it like that.

Good read. Sizing tell for sure. I would have called turn and most likely called river too after a soul read and pot odds calculation... still unsure why you would have shoved and folded out his bluffing range/draws.

3 reasons.

1) Clowns who over bet in a spot like this trying to make a ridiculous attempt to rep an 8 will also sometimes call an all in if they happen to have a draw.

2) More importantly if there is any chance at all that you will fold the best hand on the river, a shove on the turn is much better.

This particular fool bluffed again on the river but lots of people who tried this move would give up once called if they didnt improve, but fire away if they had a draw that hit or if they happened to have over cards that hit. You will never know which they have or if they hit it or not.

Obviously if you know they will fire again on any river no matter what they have, then calling the turn is better but I think that's pretty rare.

3) Shoving your chips in people's face when they try to take position away from you by leading into you like this is fun and it stops them from doing it later when you may really need to check behind and take a free card.

Villain in hand #1 and #2 in this thread is one who likes to do that.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...luffs-1657462/
Make a big lead into the aggressor to stop him from using position to his advantage. I promise you he wont try that very often against me anymore.

Fair enough. All of that makes sense to me. I don't think there's wrong or right ways to play hands.. just different ways. Good stuff.

I guess we will agree to disagree !!!!!


Not sure why you guys are so against villans folding out equity ????

We got a blank river and still not sure what to do .. yup call Turn is def the right play !!!!!!

Gimme a break

Would like to add a super +1

Sometimes playing poker involves putting people on ranges and not on single hands. So if he fires again on river, we can do the whole ranging thing.

I personally prefer doing math to allowing my opponents to play perfectly.

I'm beginning to think most of you confuse live poker strat with online . Live poker is much much more exploitation and this hand is one of the few recent examples where I disagree with majority due to them overlooking this factor

There is of course value in denying an opponent equity. It's one of the 2 reasons we bet. But rarely in a wa/WB spot will it be +EV.

The "behind" portion of his range is drawing to as little as 2 outs or dead. In this case he had 4.5% equity or a little over $10 in equity you would be earning by folding him out with a $240 shove.

The "behind" portion of his range could have a max 18% equity (9Ts or 45s). Overall it's something like 7-8% or $16-19 in equity. We block half his 9Ts combos.

So there isn't much value in denying the small equity his range has on this board texture.

Then you have to weigh that against the "ahead" part of his range. Against which we are drawing very slim.

Since we have a rainbow board and the board paired there is very little medium strength in his range that he could be over valuing. That is he's very polarized here. So he's bluffing or has us crushed.

His bluffs can't really call a raise and have little equity but might continue bluffing. I mean is he check raising as a single barrel bluff? Maybe but doubtful.

If you are shoving because you won't know what to do on most rivers you should probably just fold to a turn X/r on a dry board when top pair trips up. If you are good enough to identify sizing tells and rule out trips 100% as some here are then I really don't see fear of folding the best hand otr as motivation to shove a wa/WB turn spot.