I believe even HOC states that one of the reasons for raising preflop is to thin the field, plus gives an example of how monster hands like AA plummet in equity as soon as you start adding callers. Raise more preflop in order to thin the field, cuz the last thing we want to do is go 5+ ways to the flop, IMO.

Read the cotw sections in the micro fr forum. More succinct and relevant to the current game and the situations you'll face.

Continue reading 2+2. I've gone from a breakeven/losing player by reading this. There is some logic, however flawed, in refusing to give up pots to a player that seems to be playing/overplaying too many hands, though, so if your opponents are frustrating you with their play, it probably has more to do with what they are doing right than what they are doing wrong.

I'd say before following any of the more creative advice about thin value bets and 3 barrelling, I would try tightening up. As an experiment, I spent a weekend playing nothing but super-premiums in EP (TT-AA, AK, AQs), and gradually opening up my range to playing all pocket pairs, AK-AQ, AJs-KQs on the button. It was extremely educational, largely because I was amazed at how players perceptions of you change when you legitimately play tightly. Folding your first orbit and then playing 57s UTG doesn't make you a tight player. You need to have an accurate understanding of how the table is perceiving you before you can tailor your play to exploit it.

Also, when you play super tight at a table that regularly has 4 or more players calling preflop raises over $10, most of your money will come from 3betting premium cards in late position or limp reraising your premiums in early position. That is when your tight image is valuable because you can make big raises when there is already $50 or more in the pot. Even if everyone folds, you still take down a decent amount with almost no risk. But you need to reraise big to make it effective. Once you master this type of preflop play, you can start entering more marginal situations and start working on your postflop play.

Good post, I find myself not taking advantage of a tight image. You make some great points.

I'm trying to get more aggressive with 3betting. But I always have the goods and they fold. I'm just scared of getting called when I bluff pre by a bigger hand.

I play 2/5 and 5/5 a lot of the regs play a tight range. So they call or raise with 88+,AJo,KJo+,KQo+. 3bet calling range is a question I can't answer. I don't see enough 3betting. What about you guys, what are some normal 3bet calling ranges for low stakes?

Yes. You should be going for thin value and feel omfortable getting 2-3 streets with the above hand.

If you can't beat those players you aren't going to find th magic key answer in this thread.

The answer is in doing the work. Its amazing what you'll see once you actually take the time to break everything down, on your own, then getting spoon fed.

Forums help but that's just part of getting better.

For now, if you stick to big cards, Broadway's and 88+ and pay attention to the fundamentals like position you'll eek out a small win rate. Pay attention to what boards you're making the most money, against how many people, and what position you're in and slowly but surely you'll figure it out

I don't understand how a (winning) PLO player can't beat a 1/2 game. You didn't say you were a winning player, but I'd consider it implied.

1/2 is Valuetown. Don't bluff a lot, and bet big when you do.

It seems like you're looking for the Magic Bullet. There is none even in Small stakes live NL because it's still poker and poker is a complex game. Sure small stakes is easier to beat than higher stakes but you still need to devote time and effort to learn the right strategy to beat the game. There's no shortcut.

Continue reading and start posting hand histories and be open to feedback from people that seem like they understand small stakes.

Another thing you may just be getting unlucky and because you're not winning, you play worse, which makes you lose even more. So, stop looking at how much your win or lose but ask yourself if you're making correct plays.

You asked this question "Also, are you saying you would gladly isolate a drooler with a 10BB preflop raise IP, and be happy three-barreling with QTs on a Q-9-5 rainbow board?"

This tells me that you're not really sure what the correct play is for a common situation. So, you definitely need to start posting hand histories and building a mental database of correct lines of play. As you learn the correct plays for certain situations, then you can make better decisions.

See more hands. You said yourself you're just starting out. I also thin value bet these opponents until it's all over.

Look, I don't know how else to say this, but you have got to divorce yourself from the B&M live player mindset concerning correct and incorrect play....

There is this belief in poker justice, in the "right" way to play and that those "morons" and "droolers" and "luckboxes" are unbeatable because they don't play the "right way"...

What this really means is that they are playing in a manner that you haven't figured out how to beat and you are just frustrated.

You've got some great advice, the only thing I have to add is that you really have to stop thinking of droolers and morons and idiots as a bad thing.

They really are the best thing for the game. If I had to choice between being at a table full of droolers or a table of halfway decent players, I'd take the droolers every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Everytime you see a player call 30% of their stack pre with T9o because its their "favorite" hand you should rejoice. Everytime you see a player call 80% of their money get to the turn and then fold, you should rejoice. Everytime you see a player stack off with 87 on a 8 3 2 3 9 board because he "put you on AK" you should be fist pumping.

droolers are the best thing for the game.

Internalize that statement

Aggro kids come in and try to make cbets on wet boards into 4 players expecting folds (lol?). Then they say no one folds. Well of course no one is going to fold. Think about there hand ranges and how they connect to the board. Build big pots with big pairs and AK, AQ and prepare to commit when you flop a top pair (provided you arent deep). Make pot sweetners with medium and small pairs and occasionally good suited connectors. Dont call bets in multiway pots with medium strength hands that have little chance of improving. Read Professional No limit holdem volume 1 like 3 times then read it another 3. Then read no limit holdem theory and practice 3 times. You want to win it takes a lot of work. You cant skim through a book or two and expect to crush. This is what most dont understand. I do this for a living and i can tell you its hard to win week in and week out, but I usually get it done. And the way I did it was studying poker books, math, forums, poker stove, and creating my own poker math problems. Then studying it all routineley and quizing myself on fundamental theory concepts frequently.

Believe it or not, I have won over 4000 dollars playing PLO online. I guess the major difference for me is that I can know when my cards / equity are good in PLO games and just let the other players make the mistake of paying me off. That combined with some well-timed bluffs/semi-bluffs and it makes for a winning formula.

In hold em cash games, I never know where my hand is at. In my last game, I had J9s on an A-9-3-9-Q board. I was heads up after the flop against the typical fish who I put on ace-anything, and he flipped over Q9o in the end. I don't know how to justify any of my plays whether I'm betting, calling, or folding. I feel like I am constantly shooting in the dark and hoping for the best.

Even with hands like 6-7 suited, which supposedly are good multi-way hold em hands..... what do I do when I hit a flush or non-nut straight? If there were 6 people seeing the flop, I will have the underflush a lot of the time it seems like.

And don't get me wrong, I am absolutely trying to read / follow the advice people are giving me. I even printed out a bunch of the replies to this thread. I just can't seem to get a real grip on this game. It doesn't make the same kind of sense to me that PLO does.

Yeah that makes total sense, and like I said I have nothing against them. I just know that they are losing players with a losing strategy that good players know how to beat.

How about playing a couple of hundred thousand hands of $2nl and $5nl to get a better feel for the relative strengths of various hands vs situations vs positions...

I get the sense that your poker knowledge is sound but that you just aren't calibrated for nl.

Perhaps get calibrated online (which would be faster and cheaper) and then revisit the casino.

If you are still adjusting to live play, you should not be playing J9s. It sounds like the other players are reading you better than you are reading them. Each game has its own "language" -for example, "what does a $10 flop bet into a $20 pot mean here?" You are not familiar with that language, so you need to stick to super-premium hands and raise enough preflop to deny inferior hands proper drawing odds - it's a bit of scared money, but it will still be slightly profitable, as the players you are against will not realize that drawing to a set for a $20pf raise is losing them value when they're $200 deep.

You do not have the post flop experience to play drawing hands well, so tighten up, push premiums for value. After 100 or so hours of super-tight play, you should learn enough of the post-flop language to add in some small pairs and suited connectors from the CO and BTN, but for now, avoid drawing hands and easily dominated hands like the plague.

This is excellent! There is nothing more painful than losing to someone who you are clearly better than. You know you're smarter, better looking, bathe more frequently, and got laid more recently, but somehow, that IDIOT keeps taking your money. The problem is that you're the IDIOT giving him your money. You don't see it that way, but it's exactly what's happening. Unfortunately, I'm still in the IDIOT stage or giving my money away, but at least I've learned that *I* am the IDIOT.

Best way to approach live play is to start out by being a super nit that slowly loosens up. This is infinitely better than starting out as a LAG that slowly tightens up.

Note: It won't be quite as much fun though

Great quote, dgi.

Also, the difference between live and online is huge. The difference between Hold'em and Omaha is also pretty big, as you know. These are likely what you are struggling with.

One last time.

Why are you in a hand with J9? Why did you put him a Ax? Did he bet on the flop? If he did bet on the flop, why would you call? If he didn't, why would you think he had Ax?

I am struggling to come up with a scenario where he didn't outplay you and am failing. If there was a fish in this hand, it was you.

I'm sure you are right. I was floating to see if I could hit a nine, jack, or a backdoor flush. I figured he would pay me for sure if I hit. I just don't know what the heck I'm doing with this game.

Floating to hit a card is bad.

You float vs an opponent who will give up.

Or, if the bet's super small (like 5 into 20+, I can see peeling, but not a normal bet.

Best thing you could do is go into the coaching section and find a low limit live coach like ANL.

Seek Limon

No coaching necessary to beat 1/2NL. You can do it on your own for free....thanks to the internet.

Read the archives linked in the stickys about the very basics....starting hands, position, pot odds, etc. Then, read the hands posted, too, and play along. But, more importantly watch the consensus answer for a particular street of betting. If 9/10 people are coming to the conclusion of "fold," it's likely the correct answer, but READ them through and think about them (this is where the majority of your learning comes from imo). When you start thinking about what you would do BEFORE reading any answers and find your answers mesh with the consensus, you will comfortably beat a low stakes casino Hold'em game. Grab a bankroll and give it a whirl.

Just FYI, $4000 may seem like a lot but it's not really very much money if you're talking about online poker. I don't know what your WR is or what stakes you play, but I'll take your word that you're a very good PLO player.

I feel the same way about PLO. The right way to learn is not to come in and expect to crush Holdem (which is a totally different game) because you're good at PLO or vice versa. If you have this expectation, you will fail. The reason is if you believe your game is great, there is no logical reason to try to improve or really evaluate your play. You need to understand that while you may be good at PLO, from your own statements you're not great at Hold'em yet and you need to improve.
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I would say the biggest issue is that you can't expect to win at Holdem purely because you do well at PLO.

Bad thinking: "I have no idea what to do with QQ or low flushes! This game is crazy, I can't beat these fish!"

Better thinking: "I need to improve my hold'em skills. I'm having problems knowing when to bet/fold, raise/fold and raise/call medium to strong hands. I will post some hands and search for advice on those specific issues."