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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 09-11-2017, 03:57 PM   #26
Buster65
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
I think we are looking at this all wrong. I cater my preflop ranges to my opponents. If they play straightforward, we can play a huge % of hands vs them IP and print money. If they are capable/adjusting/thinking players, we can't. Luckily until you play 5/10, the latter is very unlikely. Target straightforward players and exploit.
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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
2. The four elements of winning poker are: Hand Strength pf, Initiative, Position and Skill.

Have three of the four elements and you are likely to win the hand. Have two and you need to have an overwhelming advantage in those two areas. LLSNL players believe they have a huge advantage in Skill a lot of the time. They are mostly wrong. Most of the HH where people run into trouble is where Hero assumes they can out play their opponents with a mediocre hand in early position. They add insult to injury when they decide to limp in because they don't want to bloat the pot.
Although I would argue if we follow what paratrooper says that hand strength preflop is the least important of Venice's 4 elements. This forum lately seems to be on a "call pre" kick, and when I suggest the OPs would be better off folding, I get so much resistance b/c "OMFG HAND STRENGTH". When you learn to let go of hand strength, at least without considering these other elements and most importantly what paratrooper says, your games will start to improve by leaps and bounds.

Although, I'm ok if they don't, cause ya know, live poker.....
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:17 AM   #27
Calldown88
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

Cliffs: op's view is accurate.

I see it all the time, people on this board suggesting it's "terrible" to call pre with AQ/KJ/KQ in various situations because "we could easily be dominated!" Well that's poker, sometimes you're dominated and you're going to lose a pot. It is irrelevant if you are capable of losing less when you're beat, winning more when you have the best hand. If you sit there and never give action you aren't going to beat the better players in your room.

When I evaluate my play I always ask myself "what would happen if I had his hand?" So many times after losing a pot I'm sitting there thinking that I would have stacked myself, and all the money left in front of me is money saved.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:14 PM   #28
venice10
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

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Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Although I would argue if we follow what paratrooper says that hand strength preflop is the least important of Venice's 4 elements.
I agree with this at a certain skill level of player. If you are at the "fit or fold" stage of your game, the hand strength is going to play a large role in your winnings. These include those who are completing in the SB because, "pot odds." You're probably not profitable set mining, let alone playing SCs. If you have been told multiple times, "You're a donk for calling my bet on the flop. I wasn't ever paying off you off now that your flush draw hit," when you didn't have the FD to begin with, then hand strength is of less importance.
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Old 09-13-2017, 12:49 AM   #29
javi
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

What you consider bad preflop mistakes translate well in live games since live players simply do not fold, ever. Keep in mind most live players are completely self-taught. They do not read books (or at least remember what they read), read online, study, or try to improve their game whatsoever. Call it hubris, ignorance, or just ineptitude, but they all seem to think their strat is best. As a result they make such profound mistakes postflop that we can limp/call a lot just to spike on them and expect to get paid. This is different than their approach where they'll call with any 2 cards to hit, because we'll still have a reasonable range of hands that we're playing, we just dont need to be balanced or play only 67s+ and better.

Anything that can make a straight, flush, or better will likely be the nuts in a live game. Unsuited gappers (T8o, 57o, etc), suited trash (K7s, Q5s, J8s, etc) have lots of potential. We still want to have a range advantage so that we're not playing for a 3 high flush, but *they* will be.

The kinds of hands fish run into playing vs other fish have conditioned them into believing almost any hand has potential. In fact, just tonight I felted a guy with AJo vs J2o because he flopped top pair. Flopping pairs is hard right? So he thought he was good. And if I werent at the table his J2o probably would have been good vs the other moron who would have paid him off with middle pair. Anyone who reads these forums has such an edge vs your standard live player it's ridiculous, which is why you can introduce A LOT of speculative hands in your range.

The fact that most of us grasp the basic concept of what a value bet actually is already puts you in the top 10% of live players in any casino in the USA. Another hand I won a decent pot from was with King high vs a maniac to my left. I called him down and he seemed annoyed that his Jack high lost. I had a few drinks and just commented "knew you didnt have ****", to which he promptly replied with "then why didnt you bet?!". I said "what would call me?" before I realized i might give this guy an epiphany and just ignored him.

So all that being said understanding the fundamentals of poker alone is enough justification for you to play many MANY more hands that you ever would online since nobody is going to ever exploit you for it, and youll be able to make much smarter postflop decisions with your trash than they will.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:13 AM   #30
Tomark
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

Preflop discussion always causes the longest threads in these forums. Playing preflop "wrong" is the biggest leak in almost every player's game. Most players play too loose (because they suck), and good players play too tight IP (because they arent maximizing their opportunities to gain a skill advantage, or they are wrongly trying to do it with a limp rather than a raise, or just generally they underestimate the insane value of position aganst straightforward players)

The 95 example, raise pre, you screwed it up and almost let tptk get away from their hand without their stack by letting it go multiway. Skill advantage is multiplied by pot size, raising lets bad players make bigger errors.

GTO for the most part is garbage at low stakes in any decision because extremely exploitable players shouldnt bet attacked with a GTO strat
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:22 AM   #31
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

good threat.
people are more or less advocating playing garbage pre trying to flop that illusive hidden monster that stacks their opponents monster starting hand.
I love it 4 the lolz.
Spoiler:
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:52 PM   #32
fluxboy
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

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Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Although I would argue if we follow what paratrooper says that hand strength preflop is the least important of Venice's 4 elements.
This is from Hunter Cichy.

1) Card Edge ... 50% of your profits.
2) Initiative ..... 30% of your profits.
3) Position ...... 10% of your profits.
4) Skill ............10% of your profits.

He states the reason skill edge is only worth 10% is that the majority of your skill edge comes from your ability to evaluate your card edge, initiative, and position preflop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxGeA7TncSI

***

Not the final word, but I lean towards his methodology. I chatted with him briefly and he came across as genuine and authentic. Whenever I talk to coaches I am curious about their results, and whether what they teach is relevant to the stakes I am playing. Hunter mentioned he attained a $70/hr win rate over 1500 hours playing 2-5 live.

One should be skeptical over anything you hear someone say, particularly on the internet. Nonetheless, I thought I would throw this out there.

Personally, I find the live game to have very wacky dynamics. I can play at one table where 4x raises are stealing the blinds. Another where 10x raises are being called by half the table. Another 1-2 game is straddled and double straddled with the entire table limping. And this can all happen in one poker room in a single session.

But if I think card edge, initiative, and position the chaos becomes more manageable.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:37 PM   #33
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

Doesn't Hunter's experience & book revolve around online play? If I'm correct, hand strength is going to carry a lot of weight. I don't think you find too many donkeys on their anymore; I wouldn't know because I don't play online.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:10 PM   #34
fluxboy
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Re: Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
Doesn't Hunter's experience & book revolve around online play? If I'm correct, hand strength is going to carry a lot of weight. I don't think you find too many donkeys on their anymore; I wouldn't know because I don't play online.
Actually, most of his students are live players, I believe. And he himself now spends the majority of his time playing live NL, PLO, and tournaments, when not coaching. His books and vids do heavily stress a game theory infused, balanced strategy as a base, from which you deviate to exploit conditions as they arise. He does admit, however, he is not focused on teaching a 1-2 live player how to crush the 1-2 live game. He is focused on how to teach you to crush any game, of any stakes.

As for the original question...

Bad Pre-Flop Play is Good in LLSNL??


When swimming with fish, take care that you dont become one yourself.
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