So let's say it's a Monday afternoon, you're playing a 1/3 cash game 7-handed and the table seems to be mixed with tourists and old men with coffee. Effective stack sizes are $300.

You're dealt KJo in BB
4 players fold
BTN opens to $12
SB flats $12
Hero ???

From what I understand, there are 3 real options here:

Option 1) Fold - This might seem very nitty, but the other two options aren't great either. You don't want to flat a raise out of position and without the initiative, play multiways with an offsuit broadway hand and then play fit-or-fold postflop. It's also possible you could run into trouble if someone flops a set, 2 pair or top pair with a higher kicker.

Option 2) Call - This is probably what 99% of poker players at these stakes will do. They figure that it's not worth 3betting, since their hand isn't that great, but their hand is also too good to fold, especially against a BTN opening range.

Option 3) Squeeze - You'd probably pick a sizing like $55 here. The idea is that players will rarely 4bet unless they have a hand which absolutely crushes you, like {QQ+, AK}, of which case you can get away from your hand easily. It also brings about decent fold equity preflop and doesn't allow players to suck out on you by flopping sets. It also allows you to Cbet most flops and take down the pot uncontested the times when you miss, since you can easily rep an overpair.

Which option do you think is the best?

Fold

It depends entirely on the players involved.

All three options have merit, depending on who the button and the sb are.

I remember once I folded AQ in the BB to a button open who raised pre for the first time I had ever seen in 50+ hours of play. He had aces.

There have also been circumstances where I am raising almost any two against a maniac who will give me credit.

Calling is generally my least favourite option, but if the button opener is a decent player and the SB is a fish we want to keep in the hand, that's a great opportunity to flat with KJ.

Probably a fold. Would like a squeeze more if there were more callers, but as played there's only $25 in the pot or so. Would like a call more if we were suited or with a read that either BTN or especially SB is a fish that we want to play pots with.

For me most of it comes down to the skill of the Button and the SB. If the Button is a good player, I probably just fold. If either he or the SB are complete fish that can lose stacks easily postflop, I probably call. If they are in-between ABC players, my guess is they might play a little more honestly postflop in a 3way pot, which means we might be able to steal some pots postflop if we have a good image. If Button was a laggy but a one-and-done cbetter, we could also setup a flop float OOP and buy the pot on the river. But, in general, we're probably not giving up that much if we simply folded here OOP, imo.

GmostlyfoldingG

You should be defending the bb vs a btn open pretty wide. Folding KJo here would be very bad

Fold > Squeeze > Call with no reads

Squeeze > Fold > Call if we have any inclination that B is positionally aware and aggro.

"Too good to fold but not good enough to 3 bet" is pretty backwards. A hand like KJ is fairly easily dominated so it's not strong enough to call but it's great to 3 bet because it blocks KK and JJ and AK - hands that will raise/4! or raise/call a lot. I like to call here with AKs, KQs, 88 type hands that can flop a lot of equity and greater playability.

Defending ~1% of our stack is pretty pointless in a cash game (if it's integral to your bottom line, you're sitting in a horrendous game), even moreso if Button is a good player (where the possible mistakes we make postflop OOP are far going to outweigh just shipping him 1bb right now).

GimoG

No. The big blind is the biggest source of losses and it's not as easy as saying I don't care for 1% for my stack.

The crucial variable is whether the Button is positionally aware or isn't. If it's like the vast majority of LLS casual players, then their range is probably as narrow as their EP or MP range. In which case, you shouldn't call.

if they are positionally aware and raise 30-40% of their hands from the B you can go for a call or a 3bet, although a raise to 55 sounds high to me.

For the vast majority of LLSNL players, they'd be far better off limiting their loss and simply folding here than esascparating an already bad situation and playing OOP postflop (especially against a good player). Again, if "defending" your BB is somehow integral to whether you win/lose at this table, then you're sitting at a horrendous table.

GimoG

I thought this site was for the minuscule minority though.

Also, who knows how the table is? Just because he's positionally aware doesn't mean he's good. May be he's good and the rest of the table sucks.

At the end of the day, what matters is making one right decision at a time. I already explained what the criteria were IMO for making a right decision.

3X + caller would get us to $48. I'd probably go $45 but $40 likely works just as well. For some villains $50 is a magic number and going over $50 would get a lot more folds.

exacerbating

We're never "defending". This is a cash game not a tournament. We're looking at taking advantage of a potentially very profitable situation. If B opens 40% and only calls 10%, and SB almost never flat/calls then we're looking at picking up 9 BB 75% of the time which can do wonders for your hourly.

Lolz, I actually googled the spelling I used and thought "I don't think this word means what I think it means".

GcluelessenglishnoobG

More reason to call or raise if button is a good player.

1. Button will open wide.

2. Button will barrel wide.

KJo is well ahead of a wide range and a lot of play room at 100bb.

Aren't those reasons to raise and not to call? We're not looking to call down and hope that K high is good and floating OOP is insane at LLSNL. It's only if B will open wide and check/give up when he misses that we want to call.

In position, my 3bet sizing is typically 3x + (x per caller). Out of position, my 3bet sizing is typically 3.5x + (x per caller).

So I'd typically raise to 4x ($48) in position, but 4.5x ($54) out of position with a raise and a caller. Or anything thereabouts.

It's usually 3x + 1 BB per caller.

To me calling is generally the worst option. 3! or folding are both ok.

This doesnt make sense because a "good" player wont recklessly barrel to the point where hes leaking money, seeing as how hes good. If one or both players are fishy, more reason to call. If the preflop raise is 9 or less, im never folding pre, even vs 2 solid players

in a vacuum, flatting this raise and playing your hand for straight value, with no intentions of bluffing is very -ROI.

the problem with playing weak hands out of position is that we have often have to make 2 pair+ to have value against the player in position, and we are losing about one street of value when we make our hand. So you are dramatically reducing your window of betting for value and getting paid.

Whether or not the game is horrendous is irrelevant. You're talking about folding a hand in which we're usually an equity favorite, closing the action and being laid a price, 1.83:1 in this case if we pretend sb folds (folding is probably worse with the sb flat because now we're getting a better price w/ position on a player)

Yes we're oop, so against a good player we're going to realize less than our fair share of hot/cold equity but that doesn't make folding a superior option. By folding this tight we're just handing over ev to btn which becomes especially bad if he's out of line opening too many hands. Believe it or not defending this "1% of your stack" matters because we have to post it every orbit.

"It depends."

There is zero to go off of about villain tendencies and hero's skill level. Sometimes it's a 3-bet. Sometimes its a fold. Sometimes it's a call.

OP, do you have a specific hand you want to review?

Why not? If he expects other "good" players to 3bet or fold with a strong range, then cbetting and barreling on most board texture is favorable to him.

Point is, I can easily create certain tendencies of button while maintaining that he's still a "good" player in LLSNL and argue call or raise.

Fold is out of question and I would think that's pretty obvious, unless by good, OP actually meant very tight.

Let's simply say for argument's sake that Button is "as good as us".

Folding has an EV of 0.

Are we arguing that doing something other than folding is going to be +EV, OOP against a player "as good as us"?

Gnotbuyingthatargument,imoG