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Old 01-06-2014, 08:14 PM   #1
Lionhat
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Was this bad?

When it happened, I was like "Meh, variance" but I'm scared it might be terrible.
Hero - $160
V - $200ish

Two limps to me in co with KTss, I raise to $10 and get 3 callers. V is utg and I only got to this table so no reads.

Flop KT4ccc ($40)

Checks to me and I bet $30, V calls.

Turn As ($100)

V checks, Hero shoves remaining $120

?
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:22 PM   #2
oh-nahhh
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Re: Was this bad?

reload pre

as played yeah shove he can have Ac X a lot
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:19 PM   #3
DrChesspain
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Re: Was this bad?

If I'm new to a table, I would not be raising two limpers with KTs. And if I was raising, I would be making it $15, rather than the pot-sweetener raise to $10.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:55 PM   #4
gutshot000
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Re: Was this bad?

not too bad since if he shoved on a standard bet size you would probably have to call
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:57 PM   #5
Shwauby
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Not a fan of shoving this turn, do you ever get called by worse? Highly unlikely....
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:57 PM   #6
bubonicplay
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Shove is fine on turn, no other choice unless you want to check.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:12 PM   #7
venice10
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Re: Was this bad?

Shoving the turn guarantees that only hands that beat you will call.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:26 PM   #8
oh-nahhh
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Re: Was this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Shoving the turn guarantees that only hands that beat you will call.
i disagree strongly, there are a ton of pair + fd hands
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:27 PM   #9
Corto Montez
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Re: Was this bad?

At LLSNL, I actually love the turn shove, because at these stakes almost no V is folding a naked Ac on this turn, even to a shove. Even the more seemingly 'competent' players aren't folding here, despite lacking the required equity. They don't like to fold top pair, give them an NFD to go with it and they aren't ever folding.

I would only not shove here if I had a read on V that he was good enough to realise that he's drawing to a naked flush, and does not have the needed equity to call.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:05 AM   #10
Shwauby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oh-nahhh View Post
i disagree strongly, there are a ton of pair + fd hands
Not really... QTcc or JTcc is about it
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:19 AM   #11
ChicagoLex
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Re: Was this bad?

I don't hate the c bet, but I think we need to shut it down after getting called in a 4 way pot. Turn is pretty terrible if we are putting V on a nfd. AcTx or Ac4x could easily be in his range, maybe AcKx if he plays AKo passively pre-flop. I think V has a flush here more often than not.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:37 AM   #12
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Was this bad?

Larger pre agreed either that or just fold especially new to a table. Also I think the turn is bad for you but you caught yourself in an awkward spot with a little more than a psb left. This is why raising pre is bad IMO, you flopped top 2 and still were unsure of how to proceed.

As played shoving is kind of your only option but if you were topped up pre you would not be forced to shove this awful turn card. Although I agreeing of AcX will call but not nearly as many pairs + flush draws hat were mentioned.

So my point is there were minor errors pre flop that lead us to this marginal awkward spot after flop. This all could of been avoided by simply folding.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:46 AM   #13
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Was this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto Montez View Post
At LLSNL, I actually love the turn shove, because at these stakes almost no V is folding a naked Ac on this turn, even to a shove. Even the more seemingly 'competent' players aren't folding here, despite lacking the required equity. They don't like to fold top pair, give them an NFD to go with it and they aren't ever folding.

I would only not shove here if I had a read on V that he was good enough to realise that he's drawing to a naked flush, and does not have the needed equity to call.
What do you mean, with the A of clubs and a random other card on the turn V would be at minimum be 36% vs K10. So they would in fact be getting the required equity to call. If the have AQ or AJ they are at 43%. My point is K10 here is never a big favorite if not drawing dead. Shoving just seems better than check folding.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:14 AM   #14
PocketChads
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Re: Was this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed View Post
What do you mean, with the A of clubs and a random other card on the turn V would be at minimum be 36% vs K10.
he said naked Ac, not random Ac, and we have to give him credit for meaing being in villain's shoes with villain's limited info, not "against specifically KT"

Board: KT4A
*******Equity*****Win*****Tie
MP2****27.78%**27.78%***0.00%*{ Ac7d }
MP3****72.22%**72.22%***0.00%*{ KK+, TT, KTs, QcJc, 9c8c, KTo }
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:09 AM   #15
XxGambitxX
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Re: Was this bad?

I think you should be checking.

If Villain has worse he can't bluff call- he can rep the world though since everything got there. If he starts betting. I'm fine with one street of value with this hand, Bet/calling and bet/folding are both just awful imo cos it would take some insane spew on his part to make it profitable for us to bet/call(totally possible live) but he's much more likely to do that if we show weakness.

Bet/folding seems reasonable until we realise there is no bet that doesn't effectively achieve any purpose without committing us to the pot.

Turning our hand into a bluff is just stupid on the turn since we could just as easily do the same thing on the river with even more info on villains hand.

Check folding is pretty bad considering our hand is under-repped. But against certain villains they wouldn't be value betting worse and are never bluffing so is fine.

Against aggro you are handing him the perfect board to hang himself and u can snap him off. The A is awesome because he won't have AK obviously pre-flop action but is A-10 without a club peeling the flop? Or limping pre?

Of course he could have flopped a flush but that's hard to do and we are at the top of our range raising from the bb and flopping top two. And u still have 4 outs!
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