V1 new to the table. Just sat an orbit ago from a broken game. He has not played a hand yet prior to this hand.

V2 is a rec passive player. He's on the loose side likes to see flops for cheap w all kinds of holdings. Post flop he's straightfoward. White male in his late thirties.

V1 raises to 15 UTG (500)
Hero calls BTN w AsTs (covers)
V2 calls from the BB (400)
Flop (45) JT3r checks around.
Turn (45) To. V2 bets 15. V1 raises to 45
Hero raises to 130, V2 goes all in. V1 folds.
Hero calls.
is this a standard stack off spot?

pre - marginal, folding isn't bad vs a relative unknown utg opener @ 100 bbs

bet smallish otf

turn - just call V1's raise. reraising is typically atrocious for myriad of obv reasons

I assume this is 2/5 because at 200bb this definitely isn't standard stack off.

As 100bb deep 2/5 hand I think it is pretty standard once you 3bet turn. Loose villain can have a lot more weak TX than hands that beat you. Nevertheless, if V is very, very passive postflop then that swings his range towards boats and i might find a fold to his turn 4bet if I had a very reliable read to that effect. Loose, gambly, rec player I just gii on turn quite happily here.

If v1 had shoved I definitely fold here as I expect that is always JJ/JT.

I agree with timmy, calling v1 turn raise is much better than 3betting. V1 frequently has JJ when he does this and you will certainly struggle to be called by worse when you 3bet.

Sorry guys yes this is 2/5.

Yes, I'd stack off here.

Once V1 checks the flop, I'd expect V2 to bet JT about 99 percent of the time. And 33 as well.

My biggest problem with this hand, and i realise v1 folds, is that a presumed tight UTG player doesn't bet flop (which he would with AJ and QQ+ I.e. The hands you can expect value from with your trips).

Then v1 raises turn. I don't think utg raiser has much KT/QT/T9 in his opening range. What he might have is JJ and JTs, both of which might slow play flop and raise turn. I would therefore be very hesitant to 3bet turn.

ugh...

no no no no and no

Woah there cowboy, I said quite a lot of stuff that might be wrong there. Care to be specific or explain your reasoning?

the teeny tiny bet from V2 on the turn sets off alarm bells, so when V1 raises, I don't think you can raise.

now, if we just call the raise from V1 on the turn, it is going to go back around to V2, and they are likely going to pop it again. V1 would then fold, and it would be back around to us. at something like 150, and we would then have to evaluate again what V2 has. and maybe then we would fold.

as played, it is not a standard stackoff. when V2 shoves over the top, and V1 obviously doesn't have any part of that, we are only beating KT and QT. depending on how nitty V2 is, we might fold.

^ v2 is loose, read OP. I think v2 can do this with T9 T8 T7 as well as KT/QT. OP can correct me if not. V2 could also lead turn small with a draw to try to steal pot cheaply...

Also maybe reread my posts because i still cant see what your problem is with them...

I'd call the shove. Rec fish overvalue trips all the time so he can have a lot more than just boats here. If his range is as narrow as {JJ (3), 33 (3), JT (3), AT (3), KT (4)} it's a breakeven call, and I'd expect some QT and occasional T9, T8 stuff.

I agree with others to flat for information. The board is somewhat static and most hands V's will stack off with on the turn they'll still stack off with on the river.

A flop bet is standard and correct, IMO, probably $25.

I'd bet the flop. In this case, would've had the nice side benefit of alerting us to the strength of V2's holding.

AP, easy stack off, even against a range as MUBSY as JJ,33,AT,KT,JT we're getting proper pot odds to call the shove. Unique rec that's not fist pumping gii with QT. Trips w/ top kicker is almost always a gii hand. Tap the table and say nh when he tables his treys.

I see. V ended up showing T3hh and I doubled him up.

Ah, no one ever expects the suited six-gapper!

"That's why you nits never win, you're so predictable and have no gamble" etc. etc...

**** you, you ****ing fishy ****!

I love these threads where we come in and do these range analysis and the villain has something no one even considered lol.

But for serious strat considerations so we can basically safely assume villain has all suited tens in his range which at first glance may lead us to believe that damn in hindsight this is a great spot. He has every 10 in his range! Fist pump call! But you have to considered if villain has just the trips here 102s, 104s, etc would he play the hand this way? Or did we make a mistake here and villain is only doing this with boats? and is just flatting you with his weak trips?

Something to consider imo.

There are certainly some very passive players who are only raising with primary strength. They can be very loose too, they just hardly ever get aggressive.

Against such players you have to think of them as nits once they start raising. Just nits with weird hands.

I agree. Browni is correct that rec fish overvalue trips all the time, but you don't usually see it play out like this. Generally, rec fish with Twk here is going to take a much more passive line. They are fish in this particular spot because they can't find a fold with 10-8. Taking this weird betting line here screams full house. Granted, T3 here is pretty absurd, but its just what I'd expect from JJ or 33 as well from a passive player. Call from BB, slow play flopped set then get tricky, tricky on turn when he fills up.

This idea has come up in a few of the threads I'm currently involved with. I think I'm going to include it in my "new table/new opponents" nit mode. Basically I batten down the hatches till I have some reliable reads.

Perhaps I'm guilty of labeling a player a fish and then leaping to the conclusion their postflop raising is with a range only marginally less cack than their postflop calling ranges. That maybe too loose and certainly I've owned myself a fair few times in that fashion.

Better to wait a few more hands and get a better read before risking your stack. Trouble is you feel under pressure to take on the fish ASAP before they go busto and leave...

T3 sooted gambol gambol!!

I'm not folding for another $350. Sucks that you ran into a boat.

Oh, GOD that's so gross...

I just puked in my mouth a little. I'd have rather seen JT/JJ than that horse****.

Also, you're on the button. If it checks to you in a multiway pot like this, there's a low chance somebody has a jack. Get into the habit of betting your second pairs when there's a fair chance that they're good. You could get value from 98/KQ/109 etc. Then when you trip up OTT, you have huge equity and it's probably going to be heads-up anyway.

Note: I assume this is 1/2.

PF: Meh, I fold

F (46): SPR is ~8 and 10.5. I'm betting this flop when checked to.

T (46): Not sure what "To" means? What is the "o"? Doesn't make much sense that V1 wouldn't cbet the flop if he had QQ+. I don't really see the point in raising here. Anyway...when V2 4bet shoves we are toast; there is only one T left in the deck so he's likely got JT, JJ, or 33: all hands that make sense when he call the pre-flop raise from the BB. We've only put in 29% of our stack; we can and should fold!

The 'o' in To means completing the rainbow, I'm pretty sure.

I've seen this happen too many times with dumb stuff like T6 vs. T9 to fold.

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