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Old 05-13-2017, 11:44 AM   #1
Mythranite
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AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

I've got this hand from last nights session that I want to check on if I played correctly and get a check on my bet sizing - I don't get too many opportunities to make it to the casino so I'm relatively new to 1/2 live. OTTH

Table has been pretty active due to $1000/hr high hand promotion happening at Mohegan Sun.

3 limps. Active, but passive (plays most hands but defaults to check calling on most run-outs.) opens for 12. Folds to Hero ($220) in BB with AsKs and I 3-bet to 40. All players call, 5 ways to the flop.

Pot ~$200 minus the rake.

Flop: Ad Kc 3s

Checks through. Should I just be donk jamming on this flop? I've got just under a pot sized bet left and feel that any bet smaller than that screams strength as well.

Turn: 7h

Hero bets 75. everyone folds.

Is there a more optimal line that I could have taken when I have this board dominated on the flop?
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:14 PM   #2
leavesofliberty
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

Shove the flop, imho. It is unlikely that you are beat and fish will look you up w one pair. A K may even call you convinced you are bluffing.

Checking is worth more consideration if you think someone will try to steal this pot, but I am not letting a free card hit one of three pocket pairs and lose all my chips.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:28 PM   #3
Mythranite
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Shove the flop, imho. It is unlikely that you are beat and fish will look you up w one pair. A K may even call you convinced you are bluffing.

Checking is worth more consideration if you think someone will try to steal this pot, but I am not letting a free card hit one of three pocket pairs and lose all my chips.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well and really regret not doing it after the hand.

Thanks for the reply.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:42 PM   #4
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

It's not donking when you were the last aggressor.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:53 PM   #5
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

Full discloser, I have played NL with some success but it is not my forte. I just know from TOP that this is not a good enough hand to slowplay. AA or KK in a rainbow board is a different story, because then they can hit the second best hand, and lose all their chips. Also from my observation, while it is unlikely you will be called, and you are turning your hand face-up, they still don't care. There are still plenty of bad players in these games that simply will not pry themselves with that A w a J kicker if it was the last dollar to their name. The section on slowplaying in TOP (The Theory of Poker by David Skalasky) may be of interest to you, so you will understand the situation quicker when playing live.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:19 PM   #6
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Full discloser, I have played NL with some success but it is not my forte. I just know from TOP that this is not a good enough hand to slowplay. AA or KK in a rainbow board is a different story, because then they can hit the second best hand, and lose all their chips. Also from my observation, while it is unlikely you will be called, and you are turning your hand face-up, they still don't care. There are still plenty of bad players in these games that simply will not pry themselves with that A w a J kicker if it was the last dollar to their name. The section on slowplaying in TOP (The Theory of Poker by David Skalasky) may be of interest to you, so you will understand the situation quicker when playing live.
After you 3-bet preflop OOP and flop AKx, you're narrow and strong and can't balance your continuing range so you shouldn't. Your entire continuing range should be lumped together, as a bet or as a check/raise. Against most lineups where they will way wider than they'll bet, you should bet with all your value hands (including AA).
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #7
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
After you 3-bet preflop OOP and flop AKx, you're narrow and strong and can't balance your continuing range so you shouldn't. Your entire continuing range should be lumped together, as a bet or as a check/raise. Against most lineups where they will way wider than they'll bet, you should bet with all your value hands (including AA).
+1

That's all there is too it. It's your flop so bet small or check, mostly betting small.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #8
leavesofliberty
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
After you 3-bet preflop OOP and flop AKx, you're narrow and strong and can't balance your continuing range so you shouldn't. Your entire continuing range should be lumped together, as a bet or as a check/raise. Against most lineups where they will way wider than they'll bet, you should bet with all your value hands (including AA).
With QQ or JJ, I check/fold of course. Perhaps I am wrong, but isn't QQ,JJ in your three-bet range or is that too aggressive? It is in my 3bet range currently. If you do check w/ AA in a rainbow board (which perhaps makes the hand more interesting), you are vulnerable to a gutshot, and you've crippled the deck, (only one ace left making it hard for your opponent to have a second-best hand), so I'd be inclined to check/raise KK more than AA, (unless I exploitative trapping) and I believe this is balancing my checking range because personally I can have QQ or JJ here, and plan to check/fold in the multiway pot. If it is checked around w/ hypothetical KK scenario it is not a huge disaster as they can catch trips on the turn and get stacked (though there is still the pesky gutshot). Isn't there some merit to KK slowplay in rainbow board if you could have QQ/JJ, and checking is in your flop range?
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:47 PM   #9
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
With QQ or JJ, I check/fold of course. Perhaps I am wrong, but isn't QQ,JJ in your three-bet range or is that too aggressive? It is in my 3bet range currently. If you do check w/ AA in a rainbow board (which perhaps makes the hand more interesting), you are vulnerable to a gutshot, and you've crippled the deck, (only one ace left making it hard for your opponent to have a second-best hand), so I'd be inclined to check/raise KK more than AA, (unless I exploitative trapping) and I believe this is balancing my checking range because personally I can have QQ or JJ here, and plan to check/fold in the multiway pot. If it is checked around w/ hypothetical KK scenario it is not a huge disaster as they can catch trips on the turn and get stacked (though there is still the pesky gutshot). Isn't there some merit to KK slowplay in rainbow board if you could have QQ/JJ, and checking is in your flop range?
So when you flop AKx, you're going to check/fold JJ-QQ, check/raise KK, and bet AA/AK?

If you're going to do something as exploitable as that you're better off either 3-betting preflop way wider than JJ+/AK or never 3-betting and calling 100% of your continuing range preflop.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:54 PM   #10
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Re: AsKs flopped 2-pair - 1/2

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
So when you flop AKx, you're going to check/fold JJ-QQ, check/raise KK, and bet AA/AK?

If you're going to do something as exploitable as that you're better off either 3-betting preflop way wider than JJ+/AK or never 3-betting and calling 100% of your continuing range preflop.
Though these two objectives are related, game theory optimization vs $$$, they are not the same. $$$ > GTO. And one way to do that is to allow your opponents to hit a second best hand w KK by checking and waiting to see how the hand develops. I am not necessarily check-raising. I am leaning towards check/calling. And while it's easy to put me on KK if you knew what my strategy was, you've probably only played with me for 3 hours before I am somewhere else anyway.

If your point is that I'd lose to deep blue, then I'd happily concede that point. But the numbers need to integrate with over the board play to maximize $$$.
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