Surprised to see the number of raisers on this relatively innocent flop texture.

A min-raise (vs. a call) increases another's players req min eqy to 27% from 19%. Not that material, but w/e. Trying to iso with 4 left to act is challenging.

Hope was to get maybe 2 streets max, unless there are reads on stationy players. We're checking a lot of turns.

Just because someone else is getting odds to call doesnt mean we're losing any money. we are still an equity favorite.

They are putting in money with the worst hand. we wont.
we have an easy check/fold if a heart comes. so will realize our equity in bigger pots than they will.

Congrats to them for calling with proper odds. It doesnt mean anything to us in terms of dollars.

example: you raise with QQ, you get 3bet, you shove and V has AK. He is getting proper odds to call. Do you want him to fold???

Playability matters.

Let's say we call and there are two more callers (again, our opponents are right to call with a LOT of stuff).

What is your plan for most turn cards?

(And note that: because they're right to call with a lot of random stuff that has a small piece of the board, you're check-folding the best hand a lot of the time.)

I LOL'd

The issue is that there are a surprising number of hands opponents can have that are in that 20-25% range.

If villan has 77,33,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,AhTh,KhTh,QhTh,JhTh,Ah9h,Kh9h ,Qh9h,Jh9h,Th9h,Ah8h,Kh8h,Qh8h,Jh8h,Th8h,9h8h,Ah7h ,Kh7h,Qh7h,Jh7h,Th7h,9h7h,8h7h,Ah6h,Kh6h,Qh6h,Jh6h ,9h6h,8h6h,7h6h,Ah5h,Kh5h,Qh5h,Jh5h,8h5h,7h5h,6h5h ,Ah4h,Kh4h,Qh4h,Jh4h,7h4h,6h4h,5h4h,Ah3h,Kh3h,Qh3h ,Jh3h,6h3h,5h3h,4h3h,Ah2h,Kh2h,Qh2h,Jh2h,5h2h,4h2h ,KQo,Q9o+

and we have AdQs...I hope we don't have the Q of hearts
we have %63 equity against a range of flush draws sets and very few top pairs

I would raise here and get it heads with with utg. jamming all turns not a heart
His spr is 4


maybe I get stacked and maybe this is a leak in my game.

Not to single you out, I think this phrase echoes the sentiment of all those advocating a raise. I think you're raising to make the hand easier to play. I think you are intimidated by the complexity and vagueness of your potential future decisions. And that's why you'd rather "find out where I am", right now just to quell the anxiety.

Just fold if that's the case. No one will know. There's no shame or embarassment.

Define "a lot of stuff". Do you at least agree that any hand better than ours would find a raise behind us almost all the time? Would a set or 2 pair let a free card roll off on a flush draw board?

If we can agree on that, then anything that calls behind us is behind. Whether it's a little or a lot of hands...they're behind.

My plan is to play poker. I don't know what you're asking here. My plan for the hand is to try and get to showdown. If this flop isn't raised, and no heart rolls off, I'm probably happy just check/calling the rest of the way.

You've lost me now. Are you saying that a heart draw, or 2nd pair is going to flat the flop, and then bluff a blank turn forcing us to fold the best hand?

I really don't think that's a realistic range for the villain. He's leading 8h5h into 5 people??

Also, I think it's kind of optimistic to ask V to call us, out of position, with Qx after he saw us raise with four players behind us. I don't see any way we actually have 63% equity against hands that would actually continue like that.

Also...with a lot of the 12+ outers you've put in V's range, I'd expect him to just jam over us if we did the heavy lifting and cleared the field.

my bad I thought he was in the blinds but he limped UTG

You can call it "finding out where I am", I think the cool kids these days call it "defining our opponents ranges" or some such.

I'll actually win the pot now by raising a fair amount of the time -- which is a fine result, we have one pair! -- rather than try to play the rest of this pot OOP multiway while having no idea what turn cards we want to see. I think that if you do just call, you're pretty much consigned to check-folding the rest of the way. (I think check-calling multiple streets, especially multiway, is LOLbad.)

"A lot of stuff" that calls I sort of covered in the above post, but any 7, any 3, gutters with backdoor clubs like 54cc is getting direct odds if we do not raise, especially if we don't plan to bet the turn so they will see two free ones. My contention is that we make a lot more off those hands in the long run by raising now (and if they want to correctly fold now, that's fine).

Flush draws I don't care much -- we aren't folding them out, but if they want to put more money in now, that's also good for us.

Against that, it costs us an extra $100 when we're beat right now.

there's the flaw in your thinking

the rest of us want to make money

you just want to lay them out on the table and measure them

EGO is the biggest killer of bankrolls

Thread closed. OP if you want this to continue because you still want to discuss the hand send me a PM.

Thread reopened per OP’s request.

I highly suggest that if anyone has an issue with certain posters they block/mute that poster so that they no longer see their posts. It’s the easiest way to do business and avoids infractions/bans.

Except raising fails to do that. If you just call, then V's behind with big hands will raise, and will just call with little hands. If you raise for them, then they can slowplay all their big hands along with their medium strength hands.

Is it a fine result? The best result is realizing our equity in the biggest pot possible. How does this compare to that?

As of this moment, we are IN-position against the only person who's shown interest in this hand.

Not hearts

Is there reasoning in here? Or is it just "I think this is lolbad"

It's GOOD if those hands call.

So? Why is this bad? Money in the pot means more than one person can play profitably. Happens all the time man.

you dont' know that. We're not the aggressor in the hand right now. We don't have to bet in order for people behind us to not see the river.

Well, it's really not fine if you compel a villain to make a correct fold when he would have otherwise put money in the pot. Like, if someone had 44 here, we want them to fold because they aren't putting any money in the pot unless they improve. Someone already bet for us, so his bet folds out the junk to which we would want to deny equity. What we don't want to do is fold out hands that will put more money in the pot unimproved.

I don't know how you're "making more off those hands" if they fold.

I think this is an exaggeration. I think there are a fair number of non-nut flush draws that would give up if we make a stack-committing raise right now.

No, it will cost you more because you aren't doing anything to suss out anyone with 2pr+. You're just owning yourself against them while letting other hands make correct folds.

Whats wrong with calling and then betting non heart turns if UTG checks? Now he's not getting his direct odds for any of the random 7s, 3s, and gutters with backdoor clubs because hes going to face a bet again on the turn

Hero raises to 175 (for all the reasons above)
HJ cold jams 500 (range of sets and hh multis/nfds)
utg folded, leaving hero 300 to call to win 1165
I believe we’re priced in here?

It’s a ludicrous spot.
Raising more than 25-30, limping and limp raising all seem wrong with AQo
Flatting the 65 leads to a gravy train we will rarely win
Folding is absurd
So nothing is correct.

your not going to win every pot you enter

its tough sitting here with zero read on HJ
I would call/fold based on my feel of HJ's range in the moment
in a vacuum I lean toward fold here (he shoved over a bet and raise from the preflop raiser)
but I still would raise or fold and not flat the $65 every time

Actually limp/raising is a pretty good idea

This just isn't true. People keep saying it is but it simply isn't. If we are going this many ways to the flop our opponents ranges are wide ****ing open. They are just not going to have many hands that can continue on this board. Again raising folds out the exact hands we want to continue and leaves us with the hands we least want to be playing against.

This is basic poker theory really.

I’m framing this response and hanging it in my bedroom so I can read it everyday.

Why do you think there will be a gravy train? Except for hearts, this board is innocent.

We also don't need to win every hand. Sometimes TPTK is a fold.

AP, action depends on HJ image, your read, combinatorics (Q7s/77/33/FD, etc.)

I don’t think you’re quite priced in actually but let’s hear your range for what he’s jamming with. (In my games there aren’t a ton of people willing to jam 500 in on a pure draw, but YMMV.)

I’d have his range as sets Qxhh Axhh (then discount but don’t exclude 54hh-65hh Q7s Q3s)

I’d exclude Khxh and lower flushes unless they had some additional equity per above.

Local casino is notorious for gravy train pots both pre and post. It is the key dynamic here. If I flat 65 then every pair gs fd bdfd will call. When that happens it becomes virtually impossible to range any opponent or to analyse whether particular turn and river cards are safe unless we turn a non heart Q or A.

OP, I don’t understand why you think that the HJ will cold shove a NFD here over a bet and a raise? Is it fairly standard for people to do that in your games? Or did you have a read that he’s the gambly type?

I mean, he has to be afraid of nutted hands when there’s a bet and a raise in front of him so 3b shoving the NFD seems very aggressive when he’s only in for 25.

I think his range is exclusively 33/77 and Qxhh here. Hell, some players won’t 3b shove even Qxhh here.

Hopefully you are adjusting to this dynamic. That said, in the op you were expecting the pfr (5bbs) to iso 1-2 opponents.

It is not a positive result for a raise to fold hands like QX/JJ-/54. Flopping a FD is ~11%, less likely than flopping a set.

We just need to hunker down and play poker oop. Hope it worked out!